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Subject:
Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
Category: Relationships and Society > Cultures Asked by: archae0pteryx-ga List Price: $2.90 |
Posted:
26 Feb 2005 12:24 PST
Expires: 28 Mar 2005 12:24 PST Question ID: 481411 |
Here's the best I can render it: andros dikaiou karpos ouk apollutai I can't put in the accent marks or the breathing symbols, distinguish the sigmas, etc., but if you know Greek you will be able to read through this coarse transliteration. I just want to know what this quotation from Menander says in English. Once I get past "man," I can't do it by back-formation through English etymology. Thank you, Archae0pteryx |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: scriptor-ga on 26 Feb 2005 12:54 PST |
I think it refers to "the calumny of Apelles", but unfortunately I don't read Greek... Scriptor |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: markj-ga on 26 Feb 2005 13:19 PST |
Consistent (I think) with scriptor-ga's translation is this snippet from an online auction catalog: ?'Andros Dikaiou Karros Ouk Appolutai'. (Die Verleumdung des Apelles). Die eselohrige Dummheit auf dem Thron und die Tyrannei in Wut über einen jungen Mann, der von der Unschuld und Merkur geschützt wi...[more] " http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:MVNzMPlT3AIJ:www.icollectorlive.com/viewCatalogLots.aspx%3Fauctionid%3D3391%26page%3D6%26rec%3D25+appolutai&hl=en Unfortunately, this comes from a Google-cached page, and the original, which contains the "[more]" is not available. markj-ga |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 26 Feb 2005 14:16 PST |
Hmm, good leads, you two--but no bull's eye yet. If I could even get one of the other key words, maybe I could ID it in a list of quotes by Menander. I have a Greek dictionary somewhere in my library, but I can't find it, and because of the different alphabets I can't seem to get an online dictionary to help me out. I thought one of you GA geniuses would be able to figure out a back-door way to startle this one into revealing itself. Maybe Scriptor will see a clue in your find, Markj. (What I see written down here, though, is not "karros" but "karpos": very distinctly kappa alpha rho pi omicron (with a grave accent) sigma.) Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: pafalafa-ga on 26 Feb 2005 14:21 PST |
It seems to follow a classical meter. Andros is man, dikaiou means 'once', and apollutai is Greek for Nantucket, but beyond that, I can't make it out. paf |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 26 Feb 2005 14:36 PST |
Thanks, paf. Geez, Nantucket, I never thought of that. It didn't sound like a limerick to me. What a sensitive ear you have. I found my little Greek dictionary (big one is still MIA) and looked up what I think are the roots or closely related words, but I don't know the language--the syntax, the rules, the inflected endings, declensions and conjugations--so I can't piece it together. Here's what I've got: dikaiou is or seems to be related to to think right, to justify, judge; to condemn; to claim, desire karpos is or seems to be related to fruit, corn, harvest, produce; profit, success also to bear fruit, to gather fruit, to reap apollutai is or seems to be related to to ruin, destroy, undo; kill, lose Does that help? Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: markj-ga on 26 Feb 2005 15:29 PST |
I dunno. It sure is tantalizing that the Botticelli painting that is called "Andros Dikaiou Karros Ouk Appolutai" in the auction listing I found earlier is definitely called "The Calumny of Appelles" in English: http://www.abcgallery.com/B/botticelli/botticelli48.html Can you tell us anything about the source or context of the quote you have? How do you know it's Menander? Could "karpos" be a classical typo? (Of course, the auction listing could be responsible for the typo, if there is one.) |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 26 Feb 2005 15:56 PST |
Markj, It was written by hand on a box of books that my son brought home last night from my late father-in-law's house, which is being readied for sale. I am guessing that the line was written by my son's girlfriend, who excels in advanced Latin and is now taking beginning Greek. An error is not only possible but probable, especially in the inclusion of diacritical marks. There's also a fair likelihood of error in the attribution. However, there is nothing like "karros" in my little dictionary. The concepts and root words that I was able to find do seem like they could be resolved into a coherent idea. If I am going to astound my son and his girlfriend with my erudition, I have to figure this out before they come home in a few hours' time. Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: amber00-ga on 26 Feb 2005 16:05 PST |
I'm in a hurry, alas. I'd go for: "The fruit of the just man is not utterly destroyed" or something similar. Karpos = fruit Andros = of a man (genitive singular form) dikaiou = just/ lawful/ observant of duty or custom (genitive singular form) apollutoi = is utterly desroyed/killed. |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: amber00-ga on 26 Feb 2005 16:12 PST |
Better still. perhaps: the fruit of a just man is not then utterly destroyed. |
Subject:
Re: Greek quote by Menander - need this one quickly
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 26 Feb 2005 16:42 PST |
Ooh, Amber, that certainly has a ring of authenticity to it! To rephrase somewhat more poetically, how about this? "The fruit of a just man never perishes." That might even make a good epigraph for a painting of judgment in action: http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/arttheft/page/0,13883,1034155,00.html Apelles, The Calumny, c300 BC The history of art is full of phantoms, and one of the sources of creativity is the desire to reconstruct what once existed. None of the paintings of Apelles, the ancient Greek, has survived. When Leon Battista Alberti wrote his book On Painting in 1435, the works of Apelles were remembered only through ancient writings rediscovered in monastery libraries. Alberti quotes longingly the ancient writer Lucian's description of Apelles's Calumny as showing "a man with enormous ears sticking out, attended on each side by two women, Ignorance and Suspicion; from one side Calumny was approaching in the form of an attractive woman, but whose face seemed too well-versed in cunning..." The 15th-century Florentine artist Sandro Botticelli's painting The Calumny of Apelles reconstructs this lost masterpiece, and is in turn one of the masterpieces of the Renaissance. So--it all comes together. Thank you, Amber. Thank you, all. Archae0pteryx |
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