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Subject:
Horribly Advanced English Grammar
Category: Reference, Education and News > Education Asked by: jimbaen-ga List Price: $10.00 |
Posted:
05 Mar 2005 18:43 PST
Expires: 04 Apr 2005 19:43 PDT Question ID: 485409 |
I think my Russian girlfriend is about to revoke my English license. I have told her that the Subjunctive is moving from old fashioned to obsolete and she answers me with First Subjunctive, Second & Third. She starts to explain to me the Oblique Mood and I tell her that she is not studying anything spoken on this planet. Help. What in heck is the Oblique? The Russians are stealing our Language!! |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: probonopublico-ga on 05 Mar 2005 21:43 PST |
This is scary. When I lived in Holland my Dutch teacher (who had never even visited England) was teaching me things about the English language. And you know what? He was always right. Dunno about Russians but there are some very clever people out there. Lucky you! |
Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: frde-ga on 06 Mar 2005 03:06 PST |
Back in 1976 when I was in Germany I was friends with a bilingual secretary/PA Her grasp of English grammer made me feel like a peasant. However it slipped up on things like: 'Someone told me that /they/ had ...' A necessary construct - the third person furtive. |
Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: jimbaen-ga on 06 Mar 2005 03:59 PST |
The most advanced non-native Englkish speaker I know is my girlfriend, and she is very smart indeed. My girlfriend's teachers are... less than smart, imo.They think that their utterly strange distinctions signify in some way, whereas I, a Usage Is King kind of guy, hold that they are masturbating with something other than the spoken language. But I am a Mere American editor. I guess they think English is what was spoken in Whitehall circa 1943. I think it is hysterical that they presume to offer rules of grammar unknown to a billion English speakers. For example, the closest thing to the oblique mood that I could Google was a textual analysis of the New Testament. OI Ve! God speaks obliquly! |
Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: myoarin-ga on 06 Mar 2005 05:35 PST |
Foreign languages are taught on the basis of the native language. If this has more complicated grammatical forms than the foreign language, there is a tendency to project (in the psychological sense) these onto the foreign language and find justification therefor. A simple example: Native English speakers have a great hastle with learning the gender of words in most foreign languages because English words very seldom have gender (exception: ships). Learning French, they learn that there are two genders. But German learners of French, who are comfortable with three genders, learn that that in French there are also three genders, just that neutrum and masculine are the same. !! (And Germans seriously claim that one cannot really learn German without learning Latin ...) If Russian has lots of levels of the subjunctive [Were Russian to have ... ;-)] this could explain your girlfriend's argument. Can she give examples that are really different - and sound like normal English - or does it turn out that they are identical, but that she - in her unfathomable Slavic mind - just perceives that there is a difference? Can anyone with a good knowledge of Russian comment on this? Since most languages (European ones, anyway) are grammatically more complicated than English, most foreigners will have an acceptance for things like the subjunctive that native English speakers in everyday usage avoid or neglect. You're right, it's going out of style, as any newspaper report will show, whereas in German it has to be used when reporting indirectly what someone said. Interesting question. |
Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: myoarin-ga on 08 Mar 2005 06:27 PST |
Jimbaen, While shaving this morning, I suddenly wondered if your girlfriend is confusing us with her terms: "first, second, third subjunctive" and "oblique mood." Without checking anywhere, I remember that we describe use of the subjunctive differently: Contrary to Fact: Were you to speak Russian, you would know what she is saying. Conditional: Were Russian to have the ablative case, Russian speakers would argue that in German some occurances of the dative are really the ablative. Indirect Discourse: He said she be a wanton woman. (especially useful for the writer or speaker to distance himself from the contents of the statement: that's his opinion, not necessarily mine.) What else? Is this possibly her Oblique Mood"? Oh, would that he were here! I think I was on the wrong track before in suggesting that she would find different grammatical forms. Maybe if you find an old book on English grammar (Fowler?), you two can discover that there is some basis for her claims. I think that I am right in saying that foreigners with their more structured native languages do latch on to grammatical subtleties that we ignore. And the formal teaching of foreign languages tends to lag behind current usage (your 1943 Whitehall). These points both apply to my learning of German, and occasionally (despite lots of mistakes still), like your girlfriend, I can explain a point of grammar to my wife, who just uses the language correctly. Good luck! |
Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: myoarin-ga on 12 Mar 2005 09:14 PST |
Hope you and she have settled this. Would be interesting to have a response ... Best, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: jimbaen-ga on 18 Mar 2005 20:42 PST |
For he who wants a response. We surrendered to each other. :) |
Subject:
Re: Horribly Advanced English Grammar
From: myoarin-ga on 19 Mar 2005 09:08 PST |
Thanks. Have a good weekend! |
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