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Subject:
Feedback in audio systems
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: sonicfetus-ga List Price: $5.00 |
Posted:
07 Mar 2005 16:21 PST
Expires: 14 Mar 2005 19:03 PST Question ID: 486426 |
I've always wondered why audio feedback at conferences always seems to be high frequency. Low frequency feedback seems to be fairly easy to achieve at rock concerts, but why always HF during an important speech? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: topbanana-ga on 07 Mar 2005 16:32 PST |
Because subs arent really employed in speech scenarios? Unless I suppose you're Barry White. |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: deeptimer-ga on 09 Mar 2005 15:00 PST |
Conferences usually take place in smaller rooms than rock concert venues, hence the feedback (which is in resonance with the room) is at a higher pitch: it takes less time to bounce from end to the other. |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: deeptimer-ga on 09 Mar 2005 15:05 PST |
Conference rooms have a few planar surfaces (aka "walls") that often are hard and thus acostically "bright" and reflect a broader bandwidth of acostic energies--encouraging high frequency resonances to occur. High frequency acostic energy in the open (and geometricallyu irregular) venues of rock concerts dissipates more efficiently with distance than the lower pitched energy; thus, if resonance and feedback is to happen at all, the lower pitches are favored. |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: sonicfetus-ga on 09 Mar 2005 15:21 PST |
deeptimer - your second comment doesn't sound very likely, simply because the speed of sound is constant across frequencies. The size of the room would only serve to exclude certain frequencies from a resonance condition. I know much less about the dependence on room shape - this is a definite possibility. However, I seem to recall HF feedback at speeches outdoors -- this would refute the reflected sound wave theory. This question is still wide open! |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: sonicfetus-ga on 09 Mar 2005 15:30 PST |
Oh, I may have slightly misinterpreted your first comment. However, with a few back-of-the-envelope calculations, the room size effect doesn't seem to account for the physical effect. Taking speed of sound = 330m/s, define LF ~ 60Hz, HF ~ 16,000Hz Wavelength of LF ~ 5.5m, HF ~ 2cm. This seems to be a reasonable distance for either frequency to achieve resonance. Don't mention the proportional exclusion of LF compared to HF standing waves in limiting a room size towards zero - I don't feel like tacking a discussion on renormalization / vacuum energy / strings! |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: deeptimer-ga on 10 Mar 2005 05:45 PST |
The devil's in the details I think. My point about high frequency dispersion is that at higher frequencies, wavelenghts being therefore shorter, the sound energy can encounter many more surfaces and scattering angles--the world has more "detail" to those shorter wavelengths. The larger or more complex the venue, geometrically speaking, the more antenuation of high frequency energy--but this is a function also of how the sound is being mixed, equalized, amplified and directed. Bear in mind the sound engineer at a concert will condition the sound field quite differently than that in a room (and at conferences, there usually isn't a "sound engineer"). While not right to the point, this URL has some meat: http://www.6moons.com/ramef/1.html |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: deeptimer-ga on 10 Mar 2005 05:51 PST |
Another devilish detail. The feedback path must somehow acoustically couple the speaker to the microphone, and resonate at some preferred pitch, and this path is not necessarily determined solely by room size and wall placement. Furthermore, the pitch is affected by the time delays of the electronics as well as the sound speed in the air. Not in the case of old fashioned simple amps, mind you, that have negliable delay. But professional sound field control equipment allows for adjustments of delay. |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: deeptimer-ga on 10 Mar 2005 06:04 PST |
Your question stills plagues me. There is more to this than one first realizes. I came across a (very lengthy!) URL to a page on the physics of acoustic dispersion in air. See bottom equation on page three of the PDF file; it shows that dispersion increases with the square root of frequency. Hence, higher frequencies disperse more regardless of the particulars of the venue. http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-013Electromagnetics-and-ApplicationsFall2002/AC5DF5AC-79D1-411B-8603-FE898E3F3A38/0/Lecture20.pdf |
Subject:
Re: Feedback in audio systems
From: guzzi-ga on 10 Mar 2005 16:36 PST |
I was going to leave this alone but there is a bit of misconception about the specific conditions required for feedback. Not that the previous comments were actually wrong but there is a little more to it. Even authoritative books don?t seem to quite grasp the phenomenon -- at least not the ones I have encountered. Two situations for feedback, one where the wavetrain is simply passing the microphone in an open space -- this is a much lesser problem. Mainly the problem is in enclosed areas encouraging standing waves. The pervasive nature may be viewed as a potential 3D web of complete wavelengths. Ergo there are far more ?hotspots? at higher frequencies, and with multiple reflections the web can be almost ?solid?. The individual ?strands? do of course vary in intensity depending upon the number of reflections and the surfaces invoked for each path, but visualising the invisible standing wave web illustrates the complexity. That?s only part of the story though because phase is crucial. If all elements, acoustic and electronic exhibit zero phase shift, at resonance there will be an exact number of wavelengths between speaker and mic. Nothing is that simple though. The acoustic requirements for resonance are standing waves and those by definition are wavelength multiples. (OK half wavelengths too for certain conditions but I?ll keep it simple). Amplifiers can be flat phase but tone controls and roll-off create phase shift. Mics too can be bad, dynamic being horrid. Electrets are very good, even cheap ones are sometimes near enough flat from 50 Hz to 10kHz. Speakers though are all over the place though. Very complex phase relationships (also modified by enclosure type) from below LF resonance, through the resonance, flattening out then cone break up generally in the region of 1.5 to 2.5kHz. The compliance is a physical analogue of electrical impedance elements, both inductive and capacitive, so at various frequencies there are lead, flat and lag conditions. Indeed, at the cone break up region, the change of phase with respect to frequency is very rapid. So from this you may surmise that dependent upon the phase response of the acoustic and electronic elements chain, there are certain frequencies which naturally promote feedback, and others from which the system is largely immune. Room conditions do modify, but fundamentally it is the mic, amp, and speaker phase combinations which dictate particular frequency susceptibility. This is a simplified explanation because there are many other considerations such as the shape of the wave-front, dynamic conditions, how closely the mic performs as ?velocity? or ?pressure? but hopefully you get the drift. Incidentally deeptimer, you (and others) might like to add your erudition to ?brainstormings? in Goog groups, recently set up by silver777. best |
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