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Subject:
Exorcism
Category: Reference, Education and News > General Reference Asked by: monroe22-ga List Price: $10.00 |
Posted:
07 Mar 2005 17:32 PST
Expires: 06 Apr 2005 18:32 PDT Question ID: 486468 |
The movie Exorcist was loosely based on a novel Thomas B. Allen, describing a famous exorcism performed in St. Louis in 1949. There were numerous witnesses to the horrifying events which occurred in the multiple procedures involved. The question inevitably arises: Are demonic possessions real or only symptoms of psychic disorder? The expected reply from the scientific community is complete rejection of the concept of demons. One analysis of the St. Louis case stated that the phenomena of shaking beds, heavy furniture sliding unassisted across the floor, objects flying about the room, strange noises, voices and odors, writing appearing on the skin of the victim, and much else, are effects that ?any determined teenage prankster could easily produce.? Really? That author must know dozens of highly creative teenagers. He claims the victim could produce writing on his skin by scratching with his fingernails, and dismisses all mysterious events as hearsay or from unreliable witnesses. Well, what could be easier than demolishing an argument by calling it a pack of lies? So, my question is: Is there any objective, irrefutable support for the reality of demonic possession? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: nelson-ga on 07 Mar 2005 18:04 PST |
I hope nobody wastes your time by citing the Bible. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 07 Mar 2005 18:36 PST |
nelson-ga: Agreed. I am asking for objective, irrefutable evidence. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: pinkfreud-ga on 07 Mar 2005 19:13 PST |
I sincerely doubt that such evidence exists. Most scientists of my acquaintance do not believe in so-called paranormal phenomena (telekinesis, clairvoyance, and such); there is an absence of well-documented proof. Anyone who can present irrefutable scientific proof of psychic or spiritual occurrences can claim James Randi's million dollar prize. So far, Randi's money is safe. While I believe that spiritual entities exist, I do not try to justify my beliefs by scientific means. Proving the immaterial by using material means is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 07 Mar 2005 20:30 PST |
Pink: I agree in general terms with your comment. But demonic possession seems to me an unique paranormal phenomenon. As someone commented, are the scores of witnesses in the 1949 case all liars? What is lacking in that case for some reason is photographic evidence, which weakens the position of those involved. One of the priests involved in the case recently died, maintaining what he saw was true. Having been a laboratory researcher for thirty years, I have seen so much bullshit from so-called scientists that I am thoroughly skeptical of all claims, scientific and otherwise. I am agnostic, but believe the scientific community simply blows away any contrary opinions as untenable and unworthy of further discussion. To me, this is arrogance. I am rather certain there are some phenomena that are unexplainable by science, but the scientists evade the issue by saying they are non-existent rather than saying: Perhaps we don't know EVERYTHING. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: pinkfreud-ga on 07 Mar 2005 20:38 PST |
But if someone had "irrefutable proof" that demon possession is real, why would it be kept secret? Why not collect the million from Randi, make a documentary or two for TV, publicize the hell out of it (so to speak)? Doesn't the very fact that you are asking researchers to seek such evidence imply that it's difficult to find? If it existed, why would it be difficult to find? Dunno if what I'm saying makes any sense. I may be starting to ramble. And I can't even use the "devil made me do it" excuse. To reiterate: I believe that spiritual entities exist. What I do not believe is that they can be scientifically proven to exist. Heck, nobody has even proven that there is such a thing as a soul. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 08 Mar 2005 07:49 PST |
Pink: You are right of course. If irrefutable proof existed of demonic possession, it would be publicized. Perhaps I worded my question inaccurately. (I know universally acceptable proof does not YET exist. That would undermine our huge superstructure of Science. My $10 is safe.) If demonic possession is real, each incidence would be unique. Science requires a control and reproducile data. How do you repeat an unique event? How do you run a control? If an eminent scientist observed an exorcism and was convinced of the reality of a demon, he would be drummed out of the society of scientists. I guess that what bothers me are the many unexplainable phenomena reported are all dismissed out of hand. Even if 99.5% are fraud, what about the rest? Is EVERYBODY who makes these claims a liar? |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: kriswrite-ga on 08 Mar 2005 08:02 PST |
Well, the fact that at least exocisms seem to work would indicate that it's not about a psychic disorder. Kriswrite |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: cynthia-ga on 08 Mar 2005 08:18 PST |
I think the closest you will come to proof is this book which chronicles 5 cases of average Americans Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006065337X//104-0733334-4822328 Read the reviews. Some of the comments make my skin crawl. I bet it's a fascinating read. Be sure to check out the "Other Book" read and purchased sections. ~~Cynthia |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 08 Mar 2005 09:21 PST |
cynthia-ga: Many thanks for the lead. I shall pursue. Exorcism is fascinating because it seems to reveal the existence of pure evil and challenges scientific and medical orthodoxy. monroe22 |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 08 Mar 2005 09:22 PST |
kriswrite: An astute comment...thanks, monroe22 |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: myoarin-ga on 08 Mar 2005 10:01 PST |
Isn't exorcism only a practice of the Roman Catholic church? Are there records of persons of an other or no belief becoming possessed? Doesn't a possessed person have to have a prior strong acceptance that there really could be an evil spirit that could possess him, imbedded (like wicked journalists among the troops, sorry) imbedded in his religious concepts? If/when exorcism works, then - contrary to what kriswrite comments - I think "possession" could very well a psychic disorder that is "cured" by the religious practice/ritual of exorcism, which also fits in with the person's religious concepts. If one believes in evil forces, one believes just as strongly in good forces and their power to overcome the evil. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: pinkfreud-ga on 08 Mar 2005 10:06 PST |
The fact that exorcisms seem to work does not prove that demon possession rather than mental disorder was the cause. I would expect that an exorcism would have a powerful placebo effect. Incidentally, Catholics are not the only ones performing exorcisms. Some Pentecostal sects are very keen on this, too. I've heard of Buddhist ceremonies for driving demons out, but I am not well-versed in Buddhism, so I'll leave comment on that to others. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: myoarin-ga on 08 Mar 2005 13:09 PST |
Thanks for the additional info. Yeah, I was thinking of Buddhists too. Certainly in the Buddhist temple art in Tibet one could get the impression that there are terrible things that can happen to people that aren't working on their Karma. And the masked dances are rituals of driving away demons. And the Pentecostals also have strict religious concepts that would allow for evil spirits. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 08 Mar 2005 13:25 PST |
Exorcism is also practiced in Judaism and Orthodox Christian rites. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 08 Mar 2005 13:37 PST |
Pink: Must respectfully disagree with you that successful exorcism can be attributed to placebo effect or suggestion. Those cases that call for exorcism would be classified by modern medicine as pathologically or criminally insane, and INCURABLE by psychiatry or other medical procedures. Those types are sedated and restrained. Now, if suggestion could cure them, why aren't there brilliant psychiatrists or others who could cure these desperate cases by suggestion? Furthermore, the extreme cases cannot be communicated with in order to make the suggestive cure...they are too violent and physical. The exorcist does not communicate with the patient, but with the demon. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: myoarin-ga on 08 Mar 2005 15:25 PST |
Hi Monroe22, It seems like you are better informed on this subject than we are, and Pink's first comments are the ones that are really directed at your question (last lines). I agree with her, applying my lesser powers of logic and taking the (unread) reports with a grain of salt. Do you want to believe that there could be demonic possession? Thanks for your last comments. I wonder when the last Jewish and Orthodox exorcisms were performed? Yes, persons who are exorcised (successful or not) definitely fall in the medical categories you mention and could be incurable in the hands of even brilliant psychiatrists. They can't always "cure" people with lesser problems, as demonstrated by patients' chasing around from one to another, people who mange to live halfway normal lives. Is there any record of psychiatrists handling or inspecting cases of demonic possession? I wonder if there are any deeply religious psychiatrists. Seems like a profession - like that of philosopher - that would have a very sceptical attitude towards acceptance of a higher being, especially one that could influence persons, even judge over them on a final day of reckoning. If we can assume for a moment that my first comment's rhetorical questions apply, then a pyschiatrist (also assuming my previous sentence) would have no language in common with the one possessed. Admittedly, that is two assumptions. But an exorcist (RC, Pentacostal, ...) would speak a language the "patient" understood. Okay, he communicates with the demon, but through the ears of the patient, just as the "demon" communicates through the mouth of the patient, even if sounds like another voice it's the patient's vocal cords. Exorcists are versed in their field (interesting question, where do they get their experience? Studying Vatican records?), and presumably even more secure in their religious belief than their patient, and talk to him - and his demon - in strong words (docu film on an exorcism in Germany), in words that the patient understands. (This is getting long, and also raises the question, if it could be accertained that someone had been possessed who had never heard of the such?) The exorcist threatens the demon,indirectly suggesting release for the patient - "salvation". Call it maybe psycho-shock therapy. Sometimes it works. Last thought: I wonder what parallels could be found when comparing the histories of exorcised persons prior to their being possessed? Maybe incidents of serious transgressions, actual or mentally? One of the seven deadly sins in thought or deed? (Probably not gluttony.) And for RC patients, I wonder what their record of going to confession was? Many have said that as long as people went diligently to confession, they didn't need a psychiatrist. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 08 Mar 2005 18:06 PST |
myoarin-ga: Yours is a long and thoughtful comment. First, I have no more expertise on the subject than those who have commented. Second, I have no information on frequency of Jewish and Orthodox exorcisms, only that both religions have rituals, as do the Roman Catholics. Third, I am not certain one way or the other that demonic possession is a literal reality, but I do lean toward believing it is possible. Why? Because of the mysterious and inexplicable phenomena associated with exorcisms. I despise, from the depths of my being, those who label all who disagree with their views, as fools and liars. We are expected to swallow whole the concept of the infinitesmal singularity which contained all the matter of the universe and exploded in the Big Bang. Where this extraordinary particle came from and what forces packed it all in there are unexplained. Now, I don't doubt that there are lovely mathematical concepts that support that incredible concept, but sorry, scribbles on a piece of paper are not reality. Anyway, I digress. You raise many questions which I cannot answer. Don't know about the prior history of those exorcised. Not every exorcised person was Roman Catholic. The exorcist is not speaking "through" the senses of the patient, but directly to the demon, if it exists. Perhaps we can all agree it is a fascinating subject. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: pugwashjw-ga on 08 Mar 2005 22:51 PST |
Are there demons and can a person be possessed of such?. The Bible says Yes!. The account in Acts 16; 16-18, about a servant girl possessed of a 'demon of divination' who was used by her owners for financial gain because she was very successful in the art of prediction. This indicates that demons can know the outcome of business deals before they are completed. Verse 17 is interesting, in that the demon in the girl, when the girl caught sight of the apostle Paul, cried out "These men are slaves of the Most High God, who are publishing to you the way of salvation". It was obviously not known to the girl herself who Paul was, but it was very well known to the demon. Paul, using his God given power, said to the demon " I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her". And it came out 'that very hour'. Verses 19 and 20 state how upset and angry were the businessmen/owners of the girl, because they lost their demon assisted financial advantage. A second example is found at Matthew 8; 28 - 32. Two men were possessed of a number of demons, and when the men saw Jesus, they cried out [ actually the demons did] " What have we to do with you, Son of God?, Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time? The men themselves certainly did not know Jesus. And the demons knew their time was limited [Rev.20;3, 21;8]. In verse 31, the demons entreated Jesus, saying "If you expel us, send us forth into the herd of swine". Jesus said "Go" and they did. Then the entire herd rushed over a cliff and were dashed to pieces. This would have killed the swine [pigs] not the demons, but it would have removed their influence. Sincerely praying using Jesus' name can protect from demonic influence. But the prayer must be to Jesus' Father, Jehovah* God. [Jehovah*=God's personal name= Exodus 6;3, 9;16]. for nelson and monroe. Disbelief and disrespect of what the Bible says does not prove it is wrong. The above examples, which can be checked, prove that the act of exorcism was carried out, to expel demons. It is possible even in this modern age, for possession to happen, but only if the person allows it, by delving into subjects, such as spiritism, taro, etc. The Bible warns severely against such things. The Bible is the major and primary source of all information on spiritual matters. Demon themselves were once angels in heaven who chose to follow Satan the Devil, who himself was once an angel, but wrongfully desired the worship due only to God [ not Jesus]. Until Armageddon, Satan is 'the Ruler of the World' and the world is under his influence. That is why Satan was able to offer to Jesus 'all the Kingdoms of the world' if only Jesus would do 'one' act of worship to him[Satan]. Jesus refused and said to Satan, "Go away, Satan, For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him ALONE , you must render sacred service". Read sensibly, these scriptures show who is Satan, who is Jesus and who is God. Three separate entities. The demons are a full third of all the angels in heaven who chose to follow Satan [ Rev. 12;4]. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: monroe22-ga on 09 Mar 2005 07:49 PST |
pugwasjw-ga: Not looking for Biblical quotations...I know about them. Looking for objectivity, not faith. I respect your beliefs; please reciprocate. monroe22 |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: myoarin-ga on 09 Mar 2005 07:54 PST |
Pugwash, In disregarding Nelson's opening comment, you have introduced a fair point, I think. The Bible is the source reference for demonic possession - in Bible faiths - including the Jewish Tora. Someone who accepts the Word of the Bible literally will, I feel, be more susceptible to demonic possession. I get the impression that you do - and I don't - so I am not going to or wanting to change you mind, but will suggest that demonic possession could then be the expression of a psychic disorder in someone would knew the Bible passages you cite, whereas someone who did not know them would show other symptoms, or maybe not develop a psychic disorder because he or she did not suffer equivalent internal turmoils due to the absence of strict moral/religious concepts. Kind of unfair, I admit: 'cause he ain't got any morals, he ain't got any problems, but should really be the one suffering from demons. "Is there any objective, irrefutable support for the reality of demonic possession?" Monroe22's question. |
Subject:
Re: Exorcism
From: mecurl-ga on 19 Mar 2005 16:26 PST |
As an Orthodox Christian, I am familiar with exorcism in the Church. I will try to provide clarification and guidance for researching the beliefs of the Orthodox Church. The demonic possession of individuals and even of objects, has been accepted by the Orthodox Church today in the Sacrament of Baptism, in exorcising satanic powers in the case of curses, and in exorcising the devil in the case of a possessed person. Sometimes, the exorcism prayers for Baptism are prayed over a catechumen when he/she begins to study Orthodoxy, such as a future convert. My priest and I said these prayers to expel demonic powers when I became a Catechumen. He told that Satan would focus on me to prevent me from becoming a member of the Church. He had seen the work of the devil in a number of those stufyingOrthodoxy. In the early Church, the prayers, fasting and and rites were performed through the special ministry of an exorcist. Now priests fulifill this role. Through our prayers and fasting, all Christians are exorcists as we reject evil and supress Satan's influence. Christ is the ultimate exocist through his Resurrection, Descent into Hell, and victory over Satan and Evil. Satan was created by God as an angel. Satan was not created evil, but uses his free-will to choose evil. Satan tries to influence humans to go against God, choosing evil. You can read more about exorcism in the Orthodox Church on the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America webpage http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7079.asp |
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