What are some ways you can break a gun, i.e. ensure it never fires
again, both for handguns and shotguns?  To be more specific, I am not
interested in methods that cause backfire (stop up the barrel) or
largely inaccessible methods (crush with bulldozer) but rather
simple directions I can give to a group of at-risk youth.  For
technical terms, spanish translation would also be very helpful.

---

Clarification of Question by rtoday-ga on 28 Mar 2005 11:29 PST

Pinkfreud - I was not asking for moral opinions.  Children I work with
are very well armed, and if you consider theft or illegal traffic of
weapons to entail ownership, they do own their weapons.  They have
expressed to me a desire to destroy machines they have in the past
used to take lives.  Please focus on the question, which has nothing
to do with "vandalism" as you say.  Neither cops, understood by these
youth as the front line of their oppression by the State, nor
trashcans suffice.

Before I would give at-risk youths any advice on how to break guns, I
would want to make sure they understand that breaking a gun which does
not belong to you is a very dangerous thing to do. Although the gun's
owner won't be able to shoot you (at least not with that particular
gun), the owner can still pistol-whip you.

Is instructing young people in techniques of vandalism really a good
idea? If kids possess guns that endanger them, they should turn the
guns over to the police, to a social worker, or some other authority
figure. If the guns in question are not in the possession of the kids,
damaging them is likely to incur the wrath of the owner.

Your immediate assumption that at-risk youth intend to break other
people's weapons betrays your deep seated bigotry.  Violent offenders
are not worried about incurring wrath, though I am sure that as you
type you envision pistol whipping me for breaking your instrument of
death (and then pulling out your other gun?).   Regardless, it is my
job to teach youth to be pragmatic, not to pander to arbitrary
"authority figures".  Perhaps if you did not talk like a cop, you
would be able to reach youth also.

I truly did not intend to offend you. I am a former social worker, and
I'm quite aware of the difficulties that face disadvantaged youths.
However, I know enough about guns to know that there is no simple,
universal way to disable them. Attempts to do so can be dangerous. If
you care about these kids, please don't encourage them to fiddle
around trying to break their guns.

When I mentioned the danger of messing with someone else's gun, my
concern had nothing to do with bigotry. A ten-year-old child in my
town was seriously injured last year when he tried to remove the
firing pin from his older brother's gun. He probably would have been
injured even more severely if his older brother had caught him doing
this. To acknowledge that some of those who possess guns have violent
tendencies is not bigotry. It is reality.

I did not ask this question to start an argument, I asked to save
lives.  But maybe you are right.  My students are here with me
laughing at you, because you seem to want them to keep shooting. 
Maybe I should teach them to use their guns for good, to defend
themselves phsyically against pigs and other agents of capitalist
oppression, like yourself, instead of using their very capable minds. 
Would this be better for you?

Like so many so-called "welfare" agencies, your small town social work
has taught you that you have a monopoly on "reality".  Let's examine
your definition of reality.

"To acknowledge that some of those who possess guns have violent
tendencies is not bigotry."

Some of those who possess guns?  Oh you mean black people, latin
people, poor people.
Violent tendencies?  Oh you mean the right to defend ourselves against
the martial law being imposed in our streets.

Your "reality" taught you to quickly disregard my attempt to enlighten
you to your subconscious racism, instead of meditating on it.  You
probably believe that you really are helping someone, dividing
families, providing limited charity, instead of examining root causes
and reevaluating the system which teaches us again and again that we
are worthless and unable to change our situation.  You probably
believe you know what is best for us.  But you have made it clear that
our definitions of "at-risk" are quite different.  Yours silently
implies a color.  Maybe you are not even as white as you sound, but I
have learned that minorities in positions of power can be some of the
most racist.  My definition of risk means that we are constantly the
victim of your paternalism.  From Fred Hampton to Amadou Diallo, the
violence relationship between the state and the people teaches us to
use violence in all of our relationships.

I do care about these kids, and all kids.  And if you are not
interested in pursuing viable solutions to systemic repression, I do
not need your help.  I hope you feel, as we do, that you should stop
talking now, and start listening.  Really listening.

Again, I did not post my comments with the intent to offend. I am
sorry you view me as a racist. I'm sure there is nothing I can do to
disabuse you of this notion, so I'll leave this thread to those who
believe that giving youngsters (of any color) blanket advice on
attempting to disable firearms is a good idea.

RToday,

I spoke by telephone to a major gun manufacturer. They confirm that
there is no safe way for an individual to destroy a firearm, except
those specifically trained to do so and who have access to the proper
safety equipment. They also said that for you to advise a person,
particularly a minor, to attempt this may open you up to liability.

According to my source, the only appropriate way for these youths to
get rid of their guns is to turn them into a law enforcement agency
under an amnesty program. They indicated that, if you quietly contact
your local law enforcement agency, they may be able to arrange with
you a way that these youths can turn in their firearms in a safe way
without having to deal directly with the law enforcement officers.

They were unequivocal in their statements that these youths should not
attempt to destroy the firearms on their own. This is not a moral
opinion. This is technical opinion from a major gun manufacturer.

There are ways to disable a firearm, but they are terribly dangerous
and, if you don't do it right, the gun itself remains dangerous as it
may still attempt to fire causing serious injury to the user.

- Hammer

According to my research, gun users clean their guns, correct?  To do
so entails removing the firing pin, correct?  To stop there and
destroy the pin permanently disables the weapon, correct?  So, is gun
cleaning "terribly dangerous"?

Judging from the number of injuries suffered while people are cleaning
their guns each year, yes, it's quite dangerous. However, if your
students already know how to safely field strip their various weapons,
then it sounds like no further instructions are needed. A completely
disassembled gun is not likely to fire.

- Hammer

In 2002, 2893 young people (0-19 years old) were killed by accidents
involving firearms.
http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/states_deaths.asp?National


Seems unacceptably high to me.

Hammer - I am so used to being attacked for questions like this that I
forgot to appreciate your earnest research.  Thank you.

I think we can all agree that kids and guns are a bad combination.  We
are all quite vocal about why kids shouldn't be disassembling guns,
however, we fail to address the fact that given the unavoidable
combination of youth, guns, and improper training, that death will
arise.  Now, what I am seeking is solutions; the problems are staring
us in the face everyday and there is no need to be redundant.  What is
"unacceptable" is the inability of supposedly benevolent law
enforcement agents to curtail the huge amount of weapons being
trafficked, not the fact that accidents occur.  That accidents occur
seems obvious to me whether or not you have data to back it up.  It is
imperative for critics of my methods to understand that the police,
trained to legally profile under the PATRIOT act, are not and have
never been a solution to the problems of urban youth.  We must solve
our own problems, as they are unwilling to help us in a way that
actually seeks to solve the problem.  My students giving their weapons
to me, a social worker, a cop, or anyone, will not stop the weapons
from being able to hurt people, which is my primary concern.

Hammer - They do not clean their guns.  If I (we) knew how, I would
not need to ask.

I will clarify my position once again.  I have no interest in your
moral judments, unacceptabilities, liabilities, and so on.  I seek
directions for how to safely prevent guns from firing, regardless of
what a "major gun manufacturer" may tell you in its own interests. 
Naturally, they do not want their product to stop working, or for ways
to prevent them from working to become common knowledge.  Clearly it
was a failure on my part to address this supposedly neutral source of
knowledge for answers which we will have to find on our own.  We are
much less concerned about hurting ourselves disassembling weapons than
being shot on our way to the bus stop.

First: on gun breaking

It depends on the maker, model, type, and year the gun was made.
That's the short answer.

One good way COULD be to use a vice or something of that sort to bend
or make the barrel so that it cannot be fired through. There is no
quick way to disasemble a weapon because they are not made to do that
and because EVERY weapon is different because of how its been used.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Perhaps a local car shop would have
the tools you need?

-Wind

Second, To all interested parties?

I attend high school with disadvanteged youth and know many quote
well, and a member of my school newspaper staff is writing an
extensive story on gangs, and has had many in depth interviews. I have
some notion of what I speak about.

Folks, these gangs are nasty.

A few quick facts:
To get in involves sex, being beat up badly, or doing a VERY dangerous favor.
You cannot get out easy.
Wherever there is one person with a gun, there is useually a back up
person aroung if the group is orginized.

This is not small-time. This is life as many know it. Treat it as such. 

(Not intended as an attack on ANYONE)

Aside from the previous comments, which are very relative whether you
believe so or not, I would think the best way to destroy firearms
would be to melt/fuse them with an oxy/acetylene torch.  Trying to
remove various parts for disablement is too complicated a process
given the vast array of guns found.  One minute under a torch will
disable a gun.

Pinkfreud, shame on you for your bigotry against gun-toting juvenile
delinquents who want to better themselves by destroying guns they
"own".

Interesting watching very different views.

Most of which seem pretty benign.

I agree with okee1finokee-ga  - OxyAcetylene 
- probably with special attention paid to the serial number.

However, one would need someone sensible to check them out carefully,
there could be 'one up the spout'.

There is a danger in teaching such skills.
Kids learn by watching experts at work.

Yep the same thing used to cut locks off. They will render a gun
inoperable in a single okay, maybe a couple of strokes.

Go get bolt cutters, and have a 'cutting party'.

good luck,

Oh, and on the oxyacetalene, they may learn to weld, that isn't such a
bad thing either.


Clint

Two ideas, not sure if either is possible:

1) Fill the chamber and all accessable internal openings with
expanding foam.  This stuff is available in Hardware stores and once
set, is permanent.

Expanding Foam
http://www.howtocleananything.com/tipdetails.asp?tid=964


2) Superglue moving parts.

@cynthia-ga 

Nice ideas - but not practical

Both are setting up a 'challenge' situation

When my father was about 16 he 're-activated' a solid barrelled 303
starting pistol in the school workshop - and used ammunition nicked
from the corps.

Kids can be pretty smart ...

How about "Liquid Nails" instead of Expanding Foam?

Maybe Concrete?

How about a dob of weld on the breech. It would prevent insertion of
the round, regardless of calibre.

RTODAY
Perhaps you could write a letter to Gerry Adams. He and his
subordinates (i.e. the provos) should now be experts on this subject.
DPRK007

Gerry Adams would say :-

   Pack them in grease and bury them in the country side

You could just paint them pink.  No one is going to shoot an ugly gun.
 Of course I'm kidding.

While, I'm not sure why destroying an instrument as expensive as a gun
would do any good for a child's mental/emotional health, here are some
suggestions.

Here is some information on disassembly for a pistol:
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/tokarev213.htm

Info on disassembly of a revolver:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3623/is_200305/ai_n9275961

You can always contact the NRA for help as well.

I do not have any advice to add, but this is also a topic of keen
interest to me. I will someday inherit my Dad's old rifle; when that
happens I will want to destroy it since it's unthinkable to me as a
nonviolent person to send it back out into circulation. I've asked
around about this and have been quite amazed that there aren't readily
available and well publicized services in every community to perform
this important safety function, either through the police, a nonprofit
group or a private business. It's really opened my eyes to the fact
that guns rarely go out of circulation.

Okay, I do have one idea... some people suggested glue or concrete
inside the workings of the gun, but a two-part polyster or urethane
resin would probably be easier and better. Still, it seems like the
most final solution would be a mechanical crushing or melting down the
weapon.

And I have a further question, whether there is any legal issue with
sending a gun to the landfill?

the comment thx1138-ga made about thousands of kids dying from "gun
accidents" per year.. out of them, i highly doubt these "accidents"
involved taking apart an unloaded gun. "wow the metal that cant move
on its own jumped up and killed me on accident".

but yes, in the military it is common to disable guns by taking out
one part from each gun. you have to take out the same part of each gun
though or else they may combine parts from different guns and make
them able to fire again. of course you may have different types of
guns though.

my personal opinion though would be to not destroy them, but put them
to good use. there are lots of people who wish to have a gun for self
defense and cannot afford it. perhaps you can donate them? i'd like to
see a researcher actually to a search on how many people each day are
SAVED from robbery, rape, and death each day by owning a gun. i know
several of my friends have had to pull out their gun and almost use
it. if they did not own a gun, they may not be here today.

I think your best bet would be to not mess around on your own with
something you don't know about, but set out to inform yourself at the
hands of a professional. The sure fire way to disable a gun (aside
from melting it down into a useless hunk of metal) is to remove the
firing pin. And the best way to learn how to remove a firing pin is to
take a course in gun-handling (not by reading instructions on the
web). If you're concerned about these kids then spend some cash and
take a few lessons in firearm handling/cleaning/use etc. Then you can
'intelligently' inform these kids how to disable guns. If your contact
with these kids is legitimate and you have some source of funding, you
may even try to secure enough funding to bring a professional in to
teach these kids how to do it properly. Given your irrational
fear/hatred of each and every single police officer in the history of
mankind, you will probably be surprised to hear that many police
forces might be interested in this sort of thing, and do take a hand
in attempting to educate at-risk-youth WITHOUT BIAS (feel free to spew
vitriole about how cops would only do so for self-serving PR reasons)
- however, maybe that's only in Canada.

Regardless, if you wish to help these kids in their quest to disable
the guns they "have used to take lives" then go and learn how to do it
yourself by a professional - something of this magnitude should not be
learned over the internet.

What was it that Confucius said: 

"Tell me and I will forget, show me and I may remember, involve me and
I will understand."

In the USA, the part that is legally considered the gun is the part to
which the serial number is permanently affixed.  This matters because
all other parts can be purchased without background or age checks. 
So, for example, crushing a revolver barrel in a vise would render the
gun unoperable only until the barrel could be replaced.

To safely render any firearm inoperable, you simply have to know
something about how it functions.  At least to the extent of knowing
how to ensure it is not loaded.  This applies to magazine and chamber
for action types other than revolvers.  At this point a few dozen
solid blows with a hammer or, better yet, a hacksaw cut through the
action and frame would probably take care of things.

But probably is not definitely, which is why police departments
usually destroy guns by having them melted down or crushed in a press
instead of some quick fix.  In the worst case, you create something
that would chamber a cartridge but simply explode into shrapnel when
the trigger is pulled or the action is worked.  A far better solution
would be to simply notify the police or other authorities and ask them
how to proceed.

In fact, this is what the original poster should do.  Call your local
police and sheriff department and ask them how you should go about
handing in unwanted firearms.