Is there any instance in any composition by J.S. Bach, where Bach, at the
cadence point, uses two repeated Dominant triads, one being minor and
one being major, and resolving to the Tonic (forming the progression v
V I)?

If this is untrue, then is there any instance where Bach uses a
repeated triad with one being major and one being minor? (Example: i I
or ii II or iv IV)


I would like my answer in the form of yes or no and a link or
direction as to where or in what piece the example was found to prove
or disqualify this.

---

Request for Question Clarification by markj-ga on 03 Apr 2005 00:42 PST

alexanderpaul --

I am going to revisit this question later today, but I need a little
clarification from you.

First, do you require an example of a cadence that is comprised of a
series of actual, simple triads, or would an example suffice where the
harmonic structure of the cadence is clear, but it appears with some
of Bach's typical complexity (ornamentation, e.g.)?

Second, am I correct does the tonic chord that completes the sequence
that interests you must be  major (as in v V I) and not, for example,
v V i?

markj-ga

---

Clarification of Question by alexanderpaul-ga on 04 Apr 2005 13:01 PDT

I would prefer that an example of a cadence with Bach's typical complexity be used.

I am mainly interested in the possibility of the progression (v V) at
the cadence point and not neccisarily the tonic being major or minor.
If you can find an instance where the progression at the cadence point
is (v V I), that would be prefered, but if this is not a solution,
then (v V i) would be acceptable.

---

Clarification of Question by alexanderpaul-ga on 04 Apr 2005 16:03 PDT

Is there any instance of a v V I cadence at any point?
Otherwise, consider this question answered.

---

Request for Question Clarification by markj-ga on 04 Apr 2005 16:50 PDT

alexanderpaul --

I will look further into the "v V I" issue and report back to you. 
I'm sure that you noted in my comment that this progression in a Bach
cadence would be very rare if it exists at all.

markj-ga

---

Clarification of Question by alexanderpaul-ga on 05 Apr 2005 12:41 PDT

I know that the instance of the progression v V I is approaching
impossible if it exists at all. It is for that reason that I ask. If
you have not found it at this point or there is no instance then
consider this question answered.

I sure don't know, but I will ask my choir director if she knows  -
just off the top of her head.   We sing a lot of Bach ...

http://www.schenkerguide.com/  this is an interesting guide to music analysis.

My son is in the last stages of a PhD program in music composition and
also has a strong background in musicology and theory.  He has pointed
me to some examples of "v V i" harmonic progressions in Bach that are
familiar to him, but they do not have the "finality" of a cadence. 
Here is an excerpt from our email correspondence on your question:

"Here's a borderline case: measures 9-10 of the c minor fugue from Bk
I of the WTC: c minor - C major - f minor - F major. I say
"borderline" because the bass is highly ornamented and the full triads
never appear at once.  but clearly that's what's going on
structurally.

"A similar case is mm. 12-14 of the f minor prelude.

"[The sequence is] also implied in m. 27 (second to last bar) of the c
minor prelude bk. II.

"It's common because in a v-V-i situation the raised third in the
major V chord becomes the leading tone to i.

"It is important to emphasize that these are not cadences - the v-V-i
motion is not strong enough harmonically to prepare the dominant for a
full cadence in this repertoire - they will only appear, with possible
rare exceptions, as part of a basically contrapuntal sequence
harmonizing a rising chromatic line.  which, in Bach, will only occur
in minor-mode pieces.

"Interestingly, this sort of thing is much more common in slightly
earlier music - monteverdi, say, or the keyboard music of elizabethan
england (ca. 1600)."


Although this information does not appear to be an answer to your
question as posed, I would be happy to explore this line of inquiry
further if you think that it is promising as a potential answer.  If
it is not, I hope that you find it interesting, at least.

alexanderpaul --

Thanks for your latest post.  I would like to look a little further
before giving up on the v V I issue, since I am interested in the
subject.  Of course, other researchers should feel free to "chime in"
with a full answer, as well.

markj-ga