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Q: running gas engine without air ( No Answer,   6 Comments )
Question  
Subject: running gas engine without air
Category: Science > Chemistry
Asked by: anewwaytopush-ga
List Price: $2.00
Posted: 02 Apr 2005 19:44 PST
Expires: 02 May 2005 20:44 PDT
Question ID: 504194
Has any body ever tried to run a gasoline engine with gas and
nitrousoxide but no air. What mix ratio would be correct?
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: running gas engine without air
From: prssurcookr-ga on 02 Apr 2005 20:16 PST
 
I don't know why this couldn't be possible.  You will need a really,
really big tank of NOS to go very far.
Subject: Re: running gas engine without air
From: lobstar-ga on 07 Apr 2005 05:29 PDT
 
It is not possible. Gas (and anything for that matter) needs o2 to be
combustible. Like you learn in grade 3, The fire pyramid. As for NOS,
It is NEVER a substitute for oxygen. It is used in racing as a
catalyst, providing an environment that the air-fuel mixture provides
optimal combustion dynamics (even ignition from spark plug outward
filling the combustion chamber). In the process, The Nitrous Oxide
does not get 'used' in any way, just flows out the exhaust pipe. If
you were to only feed the engine NOS, it would bog down and stall.

Also when using the NOS you must make sure your engine is properly
equipped to handle the extra torque and the longer power stroke. I
have seen at least 10 cases of an improperly modified engine throw a
con rod and send the piston through the hood. and in one case at the
track I have seen a close friend catch his intake manifold in the
chest and nearly killing him. If you are going to use NOS make sure
you know what you are doing.
Subject: Re: running gas engine without air
From: acrh2-ga on 08 Apr 2005 11:37 PDT
 
lobstar, you need to learn a little more past grade 3. Nitrous oxide
is an oxidant. It is not a catalyst. It burns fuel much more
efficiently than air or even oxygen. That's why you will see it used
as an oxidant in rocket fuel, as a substitue for oxygen. The danger of
running an engine on just NOS is that the combustion is harder to
control, and it may blow the engine. And like prssurcookr said, you
would need a huge tank of it to get anywhere.
Subject: Re: running gas engine without air
From: anewwaytopush-ga on 08 Apr 2005 18:03 PDT
 
That's better. Nitrous was the oxidant on Space Ship One.
Now can you say some about the tank size that I can use? How big?
What is the mix ratio?
Pressure required to liquify?
compresion ratio on liquifing?
Subject: Re: running gas engine without air
From: anewwaytopush-ga on 09 Apr 2005 07:49 PDT
 
Gas /air is 15 air:1 gas      ? both are vapor ?
air is 28 % oxygen
NO2 is 66% oxygen
66 / 28 = .42
15 * .42 = 6.3
So   Gas / NO2      6.3 NO2 :1 gas      ? both are vapor ?

Still need to find the ration for liquid to liquid
? expansion of liquid NO2 to vapor ?
Subject: Re: running gas engine without air
From: lobstar-ga on 14 Apr 2005 00:05 PDT
 
I apologize, I should have chosen my words more carefully, and that
was the wrong term to use there... But still my point remains, N2O can
not be solely used as a substitute for air. The heat required to
separate the oxygen molecule from the nitrogen is ~566 degrees F, and
would not be able to produce initial ignition during startup.  As
well, N2O Is not 66% oxygen, that would be Nitrogen Dioxide which is
"is a red or orange/brown gas with a characteristic sharp, biting
odor. It is considered an insidious deadly poison by inhalation."
Nitrous oxide would be 33% oxygen.

Here is some additional reading for you. 

"In car racing, nitrous oxide (often just "nitrous" or "nitro" in this
context) is sometimes injected into the intake manifold (or just prior
to the intake manifold) to increase power: even though the gas itself
is not flammable, it delivers more oxygen than atmospheric air by
breaking down at elevated temperatures, thus allowing the engine to
burn more fuel and air. Additionally, since nitrous oxide is stored as
a liquid, the evaporation of liquid nitrous oxide in the intake
manifold causes a large drop in intake charge temperature. This
results in a smaller, denser charge, and can reduce detonation, as
well as increase power available to the engine."

"Today nitrous oxide injection, like many other modifications such as
more aggressive camshafts, bigger carburetors, higher compression
ratios, more free flowing intake and exhaust systems, can be a
practical way to more horsepower. And..like any other
modification...perhaps even more so because it so easily lends itself
to misuse...there can be a reliably and durability price to pay.

Nitrous oxide is a colorless, non-flammable gas. It has a slightly
sweet taste and odor. It is non-toxic and non-irritating and when
inhaled in small quantities can produce mild hysteria and giggling or
laughter. This is were the nickname "laughing gas" comes form. When
inhaled in pure form it will cause death by asphyxiation because at
atmospheric temperatures and pressure, the oxygen in nitrous oxide is
not available to the body.

A property of nitrous oxide is that at about 565 degrees F., it breaks
down into nitrogen and oxygen. When it is introduced into the intake
tract of an internal combustion engine, it is sucked into the
combustion chamber and, on the compression stroke, when the charge air
temperature reach's 565 deg., a very oxygen-rich mixture results. If
we add extra fuel during nitrous oxide injection, the effect is like a
super charger or increasing the compression ratio of the engine.
Automotive nitrous systems work like the automotive equivalent of a
jet's "afterburner" and is used for short duration extra bursts of
power.

Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of
oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36%
oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous
oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic
foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic
foot of air. Just do a bit of math in your head and you can see if we
substitute some nitrous oxide for some of the air going into an engine
than add the appropriate amount of additional fuel, the engine is
going to put out more power.

Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a
supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during
combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure
in the engine.

Of course, when we significantly increase the cylinder pressure in the
engine, we also increase the engine's tenancy to detonate. This is why
almost all nitrous motors require retarded spark timing during nitrous
oxide operation. The cylinder pressure increase is also why, when
misused or improperly installed, operation with nitrous causes
problems with head gasket seal and failures of the rings or pistons. I
should point out that any number of things that put an engine into
severe detonation, such as too much boost from a supercharger, low
octane fuel, excessive compression ratio or overly lean air-fuel ratio
will also cause the same kinds of damage.

Another challenge with a nitrous oxide system is getting the delivery
of nitrous oxide and additional fuel at the correct proportions. If
you feed nitrous to the engine without enough extra fuel, the lean
air/nitrous to fuel mixture will make the detonation problem even
worse. Combustion temperatures will skyrocket and catastrophic failure
is certain to occur. If the proportion is such that too much fuel is
delivered, the power advantage degrades rapidly.

As you can see, nitrous oxide is like any other power increasing
modification in that, when used wisely and installed properly, it
works well. Then used foolishly or installed incorrectly it can
significantly reduced the reliability/durability of your engine.

Small doses of nitrous oxide can be used in stock engines to gain
25-35% more power. In my opinion, any more than nitrous than that with
a stock engine compromises durability too much. This is not only true
of nitrous but any modification. Take a stock 82 or 84 engine, up the
horsepower to 300hp and do nothing to improve durability and your
engine will eventually suffer. Once you pass the 35% power increase
mark with nitrous oxide you need to look at things like forged
pistons, better connecting rods, better bearings, etc.

Nitrous oxide is also a great value on a dollar-per-unit-power
increase when installed and operated properly. The downside, of
course, is the fun ends quickly. The power boost lasts as long as the
nitrous. The average bottle is a 20 ponder and with a street V8 that
might be worth 20 seconds of use.

So, nitrous oxide is not the instant-engine-failure many people think
it is. When used properly and when dispensed by a properly designed
and installed system nitrous oxide can be responsible for some
phenomenal increases in power."

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