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Subject:
Lice and grooming
Category: Health Asked by: archae0pteryx-ga List Price: $3.69 |
Posted:
15 Apr 2005 21:25 PDT
Expires: 15 May 2005 21:25 PDT Question ID: 509946 |
This one's sheer curiosity, and somewhat unseemly curiosity, at that. Still, I imagine it'll catch someone's fancy. I read in _Montaillou_, an account of life in a 14th-century French village at the time of the Inquisition, that it was part of the social and interpersonal culture of the day for people to delouse one another. I imagine they needed it! Family members, friends in a social circle, even lovers in bed might spend some intimate time together helping rid one another of bothersome vermin. Now, when Jane Goodall's baboons of Gombe groom one another, they, um, eat the pickings. I remember seeing this cozy and nutritious activity depicted numerous times on various PBS programs. So what I want to know, of course, is, what did our relatively modern human ancestors, those folks of the 14th-century and later, do with the specimens they picked off one another? Don't you wonder too? Thank you, Archae0pteryx |
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Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
Answered By: leli-ga on 20 Apr 2005 11:03 PDT Rated: |
Hi Tryx Thanks! It was surprisingly entertaining combing through literary sources for references to cracking lice. Swift's pastoral vision was my favourite find. Before I copy my original comment here, I'll add one further extract from Montaigne - ". . . the tale of that woman which by no threats or stripes would leave to call her husband pricke-lowse, and being cast into a pond and duckt under water, lifted up her hands and joyning her two thumb-nails in act to kill lice above her head, seemed to call him lousie still" http://www.uoregon.edu/%7Erbear/montaigne/2xxxii.htm - and invite you to take a look at the charming domestic scene in Rimbaud's "Seekers of Lice": http://www.tonykline.co.uk/Browsepages/French/Rimbaud1.htm#_Toc90289046 "Crack a louse" is a useful search phrase. Cracking with the teeth was frowned on by Ibn Fadlan in the 10th century - http://www.radioislam.org/historia/13tribe.htm - and by a 17th century clergyman in New England. "If any shall crack lice between their teeth, they shall pay five shillings." http://www.nativetech.org/Nipmuc/praytown.html It was more polite to "crack the nits between the thumb-nails". http://www.pa-roots.com/~jefferson/history/chapter21.html In his 16th century essay on "Custom", Montaigne discusses the reversal of normal etiquette in a place "where they crack lice with their teeth like monkeys, and abhor to see them killed with one`s nails". http://www.underthesun.cc/Classics/Montaigne/Essays/Essays1.html Nails were used in the trenches. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWlice.htm In 1728, Swift wrote: "When you saw Tady at long bullets play, You sate and loused him all a sunshine day: How could you, Sheelah, listen to his tales, Or crack such lice as his between your nails?" http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/3/6/2/13621/13621.txt John Donne refers to this method in an intimate poem to his beloved, hoping she has not "purpled" her nail with the blood of one particular flea. (c.1600) http://www.incompetech.com/authors/donne/flea.html James Joyce uses similar imagery: "Her shapely fingernails reddened by the blood of squashed lice from the children's shirts." http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Fiction/Other/Joyce_Ulysses/Ulysses_01_2.htm Hope the "convincingly rich detail" wasn't too much for you. Best wishes - Leli Search strategy: Took a look at some first world war accounts of lice in the trenches which reminded me I had heard the phrase "crack a louse" somewhere before. Then searches like: "crack OR cracked OR cracking lice" and: Donne flea Jonathan Swift crack louse OR lice |
archae0pteryx-ga
rated this answer:
and gave an additional tip of:
$3.69
Thanks, Leli. Great job! The Montaigne was a nice bonus. Here's a bit extra for you. I wouldn't want you to think I'm a lousy tipper. Tryx |
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Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: pinkfreud-ga on 15 Apr 2005 22:25 PDT |
Howdy, Tryx! I couldn't find an answer, but I ran into something fascinating that I just have to share: "But back to the 11th century... there started appearing manuals on how to behave, at the table and away from it. The earliest such known book was De institutone novitarum by Hugo St. Victor. These books were addressed to monks and clerics, considered more docile and educable than boorish nobles. As the centuries wore on, the net was cast wider. There was much work to be done. Consider these precepts for medieval eaters: 'It is bad manners to wear a helmet when serving ladies.' 'Don't blow your nose with the fingers you hold the meat with.' 'Don't stick your fingers in your ear, or scratch your head with your hands.' 'Don't spit over or on the table.' And, arriving or leaving, this tip: 'It is impolite to greet someone who is urinating or defecating.' All this, of course, remains useful advice. There were also other tricky social questions. How to deal with lice, for example. In a society that preferred to dress up rather than wash up, lice were constant companions. Their presence could create social problems at crucial moments. Let us remember the murder of Thomas à Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury, killed in his cathedral by agents of the King of England, on a December night in the 12th century. To protect against the cold he had been wearing no fewer than eight layers of clothes. The faithful crowded into the church to pray for his soul but, as the body grew cold, the lice living in the multiple layers of clothes began crawling out. The chronicler records the scene: 'The vermin boiled over like water in a simmering cauldron, and the onlookers burst into alternate weeping and laughter.' The manuals of etiquette had prescribed no proper behaviour for such a problem. By the 16th century, however, there were rules laid down for the gentry on how to deal with lice at the table. This is a report on the education of a French princess: 'One had carefully taught the young princess that it was improper to take lice or fleas or other vermin by the neck and kill them in company, except in the most intimate circles.' The more creative put lice to political use. In the Middle Ages in Hurdenburg, Sweden, elections for mayor were decided by what might be called the electoral college of vermin. The candidates sat around a table, their heads bowed forward, their beards touching the table. A louse was placed in the middle of the table. The owner of the beard it chose to nest in became mayor for the following year." CBC News: Forks, lice and feasting http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_murray/20041221.html |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: answerfinder-ga on 16 Apr 2005 06:22 PDT |
I haven?t stopped itching since I looked at this one. Nothing to answer your question for that particular culture, but I did find the following: ?Following the example of St. Francis, several Italian saints 'ate pus or lice from poor or sick bodies, thus incorporating into themselves the illness and misfortune of others (Bynum, Fragmentation 184'" http://tell.fll.purdue.edu/RLA-Archive/1998/italian-html/Morrison,%20Molly.htm Medieval Household Pest Control http://www.granta.demon.co.uk/arsm/jg/pest.html General background information on the history of lice on humans. http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/phtm/PHTM/hlice/papers/kenward-1999.pdf http://www.headlice.org/news/2003/ancient-art.htm Captain Cooks journal of his voyages in the South Pacific. ?Another custom they have that is disagreeable to Europeans, which is eating lice, a pretty good stock of which they generally carry about them. However, this custom is not universal; for I seldom saw it done but among Children and Common People, and I am perswaided that had they the means they would keep themselves as free from lice as we do; but the want of Combs in a Hot climate makes this hardly possible.? http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/c/cook/james/c77j/chapter3.html answerfinder-ga |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: emin-ga on 16 Apr 2005 10:57 PDT |
I can?t find any mention of it on the Net now, but I recall reading about French nobility at the court of Louis XIV having special silver utensils for dealing with pests they pulled out of their clothes and hair, for example special silver dishes and small hammers for killing lice. Ugh? Let?s be grateful for soap and running water. |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: myoarin-ga on 16 Apr 2005 18:08 PDT |
HI Tryx, This is a most surreptitious form of pre-sale/publishing advertising :-) We or friends had a cleaning girl from somewhere east of the Malaccan Strait, and she used to crack them between her fingernails. (Hmmm? I know there is truth in this, but I don't know how, concerning whose lice, the subject arose. Probably at the time of a lice infestation in a local grammar school.) No doubt your Flemish common folk will have known how to do this too. And as to general manners, my mother told how at a dinner attended by the queens of France and Spain (kings, too, probably), that one of the fine ladies was so surprised when she saw the other scratch her head with her fork, that she cut her tongue on her knife. I expect that was around 1600, when they wore large starched lace collars, I believe they had longer forks for that reason then, too. But forks hadn't been introduced in "your" era, I believe. And no, Mom wasn't there at the dinner :-) |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 17 Apr 2005 11:58 PDT |
Myoarin, I am sorry, but I must point out that your remark comes unpleasantly close to accusing me of using GA for self-promotion, which isn't funny at a time when the site has recently been flooded with such posts and making them can get you banished forever. What's more, I did nothing of the kind. This is a question of genuine curiosity, having no part in any work that I am doing, not that anything would be amiss if it did. When my project is done, I certainly won't try to promote it by sneaky abuses. I feel that some of your comments cross the line from friendly recollection of personal particulars to presuming to read my mind and my motives. If I posted comments that seemed to you to be inconsistent from one to the next, would you be there to catch me out? I felt similarly crowded when you told Bryan in his #506801 that I wasn't right for a part in his pretend game. If I had seen the question before it closed to comments, I would have responded. (Bryan was right--I *would* throw the forks, even though I don't understand the reference and have no idea what that means.) And, my dear, there is nothing whatsoever inappropriate in my playing along with a fellow poster's fun fantasy no matter how many sons I have or what my plans for the summer are. Bryan and I have been playful responders to one another on GA for the better part of the three years that I have been active here. But the games have mostly been confined to questions that either he or I was paying for. This is still a Q&A service and not a social chatter e-list. Archae0pteryx |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 17 Apr 2005 12:03 PDT |
Pink, great find! Are those authentic, do you think, those rules for medieval eaters, or are they a humorous parody of some kind? At any rate I'll certainly think differently the next time I see a medieval banquet listed as a featured event in some restaurant or tour. The political application sounds wonderful. I am thinking we should start requiring our politicians (of both sexes) to grow beards. Thank you-- Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 17 Apr 2005 12:12 PDT |
Thanks, answerfinder, you really came up with some delectably revolting detail. I still don't see what people did with the ones they picked off, though. I mean, you don't just put them down. I was sort of expecting something like a handy little vessel containing a lice-killing liquid and fitted with a louse-sized hole on top. Now I am wondering up until how recently this was an, er, active problem. In some places it probably still is. What do we think they do there? Archae0pteryx |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 17 Apr 2005 12:16 PDT |
emin, very curious detail! Thank you. Are there really little silver louse hammers and coffers to be seen in cases in museums and stately homes? I would love to know what Miss Manners might say about this. Ordinary folk would not be in the little-silver-hammer class, though, and I would think that hammers of any kind might be a little rough on your lover's hide in any case. There still has to be a conventional solution. Personally, I am suspecting that the baboons have it. Archae0peryx |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: myoarin-ga on 17 Apr 2005 15:52 PDT |
Archae0pteryx, I am blushing. I thought that the smiley after that remark made it clear that it was not seriously meant - at all! - just recognition of its possible relevance to your book and, if I might add, with curious delight and appreciation for details of midieval life that I was envisioning would be included. Please accept my humblest apologies. No doubt, as a newcomer, I have been too rash to enter into banter. Sorry, also for my comment in Q 506801. It was meant as a backhanded compliment, but I guess I got the deserved backhand. And my apologies to others who agree with Archae0pteryx, especially Pinkfreud, who came to my defense a couple of days ago. Funny, just today the paper had an article about fossils, and I discovered what an archaeopteryx is. Do you type that out every time? My fingers strike. Hopefully they also will,should I try to write something that could be misunderstood or offend. Arab proverb: Allah, give me the neck of a camel, that I may chew again and again on my words before they come out. Salaam! Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 17 Apr 2005 20:33 PDT |
Myoarin, Apology accepted, with thanks. I was aware that your intent was humorous, but intentions can misfire. In this day when a child can be suspended from school for pointing his finger at someone and saying "bang," we're better off not taking chances with innuendoes. I'll warrant there's not a fool left who still expects Airport Security to laugh when he says, "Watch out, there's a bomb in there--ha ha." So it would be you taking a risk with my reputation if you hinted to some possibly humorless watchdog that I was misusing my posting privileges. I'll admit that I was also miffed that you thought I was dissembling. When I am doing research, I am usually fairly plain about it. When I ask just for curiosity's sake, that is truly all it is. And I often mention the fact because I price questions lower when they're just for fun than if I'm seriously in need of an answer. I expect a researcher to see the entertainment value of the frivolous question as the main reward (and if no one answers, I'll know they didn't). I consider myself fairly active on the GA site, but in three years I have logged only a few dozen more posts than you have put up in under three months. My advice to someone new to any group would be to wait a little and get to know the culture before becoming too vocal. You have a different style, and that's fine. But sometimes, as you say, one can seem a bit overbearing by coming on too strong. I wasn't speaking for anyone but myself, however, and don't know what recent post you are referring to. I do type "Archae0pteryx" every time, or nearly so, and then I check my spelling and usually have to correct it. In my reply to emin (above), I didn't. There's no "arch" in it, note: the pronunciation starts, phonetically, with "ark," just like "archaeologist" and "archaic." I don't answer to "Archie." For short, I use "Tryx," a nickname given to me in #205341 by Pink and Bryan when I was still going under my old nom, "Apteryx" (easier to write, but not as interesting). I'll try to remember your Arab proverb myself, thanks, since I've also been known to speak out of turn and had to eat my words. Archae0pteryx |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: myoarin-ga on 18 Apr 2005 05:23 PDT |
And thanks back, and advice accepted. SOmetimes it is just too tempting to (try to) play with words. I didn't want to take so much of your time, but you proabably compose much faster than I do. ('spect no one uses the verb for text composition these days...) Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: leli-ga on 19 Apr 2005 04:52 PDT |
Tryx ~ "Crack a louse" is the technical jargon you need for your investigations. Cracking with the teeth was frowned on by Ibn Fadlan in the 10th century - http://www.radioislam.org/historia/13tribe.htm - and by a 17th century clergyman in New England. "If any shall crack lice between their teeth, they shall pay five shillings." http://www.nativetech.org/Nipmuc/praytown.html It was more polite to "crack the nits between the thumb-nails". http://www.pa-roots.com/~jefferson/history/chapter21.html In his 16th century essay on "Custom", Montaigne discusses the reversal of normal etiquette in a place "where they crack lice with their teeth like monkeys, and abhor to see them killed with one`s nails". http://www.underthesun.cc/Classics/Montaigne/Essays/Essays1.html Nails were used in the trenches. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWlice.htm In 1728, Swift wrote: "When you saw Tady at long bullets play, You sate and loused him all a sunshine day: How could you, Sheelah, listen to his tales, Or crack such lice as his between your nails?" http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/3/6/2/13621/13621.txt John Donne refers to this method in an intimate poem to his beloved, hoping she has not "purpled" her nail with the blood of one particular flea. (c.1600) http://www.incompetech.com/authors/donne/flea.html James Joyce has a similar image: "Her shapely fingernails reddened by the blood of squashed lice from the children's shirts." http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Fiction/Other/Joyce_Ulysses/Ulysses_01_2.htm I'm afraid I haven't found any studies on the relative popularity of swallowing, wiping or flicking for disposal of cracked lice. This anonymous poet had a "chum" who was a wiper: http://oldpoetry.com/oprint/25415 Leli |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 19 Apr 2005 21:12 PDT |
You're a marvel, Leli. Your answers have scratched the itch! Gave me a good shudder, too, with all that convincingly rich detail. What a difference it makes to know the word of art, just like having the right tool for the job. I invite you to post your answer. Feel free to post as a reference to your illuminating comment. Thank you, Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: leli-ga on 22 Apr 2005 10:03 PDT |
Thank you so much for your appreciative response, Tryx. Indeed I don't crack my nails together when I think of you and your tips and stars. I'm truly grateful that you gave me a reason to pick through search results looking for little half-hidden trophies. Thanks again - Leli |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 22 Apr 2005 17:03 PDT |
Leli, Thanks for your response. You've restored my faith. I was starting to think that GA researchers were getting so accustomed to receiving tips that they'd stopped noticing them. Several times lately I've tipped researchers, in one case quite lavishly, without a word of acknowledgment in return. It's made me think twice about giving them. Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: pinkfreud-ga on 22 Apr 2005 17:25 PDT |
Tryx, Regarding the matter of a Researcher failing to offer thanks for a tip, this may not be rudeness on the part of the GAR. Neither a rating nor a tip is an event which triggers automatic notification by email, so it is quite possible that a Researcher may fail to notice that a tip has been given. We are notified by email when an answer requires clarification, but ratings and tips are things that we have to keep an eye out for, on our own. I check the page which lists my recent answers frequently, but not everyone does so. Best, Pink |
Subject:
Re: Lice and grooming
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 22 Apr 2005 20:05 PDT |
Thanks for the explanation, Pink. However, now I'm a bit confused. In tlspiegel's answer to my #469943, she showed me how researchers receive tips, and from that I inferred that the information was quite distinct and conspicuous. Maybe some people *are* just getting blasé about it. I've never seen you fail to comment, though (or Leli), and I'm sure your tippers truly appreciate that. Tryx |
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