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Subject:
physics
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: rwgoodwin-ga List Price: $20.00 |
Posted:
21 Apr 2005 12:11 PDT
Expires: 21 May 2005 12:11 PDT Question ID: 512324 |
What force causes the sand in the bottom of a spinning bucket of water to move to the center of the bucket as the bucket is stopped from spinning? For example, when the bucket starts spinning, the centrifugal force sends the sand to the outside edge of the bucket, where the edge applies the centripetal force to contain the sand. The magnitude of these forces being mv^2/r (m times v squared over r) where m is the mass, v is the speed and r is the radius. The question above is with water in the bucket, since with only air, the sand remains at the edge as the bucket stops spinning. |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: physics
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 21 Apr 2005 12:47 PDT |
I have no evidence or formula, only my personal thoughts: The water in the bucket looks like a V when it is spinning in the bucket due to the centrifigal force. Similar to this (but in 3D): | | |\ /| | \ / | | \ / | |___\/___| When the bucket stops spinning the force holding the water in the V formation is gone and the water rushes to the middle of the bucket to fill the void (as any liquid would do). While rushing to the middle, the sand is swept along with it until it all crashes in the center of the bucket where the sand then remains. |
Subject:
Re: physics
From: sublime1-ga on 21 Apr 2005 13:45 PDT |
I also have no evidence or formula, but personal thoughts. If the bucket's been spinning, when it's stopped, wouldn't the water continue spinning in a whirlpool, sucking the sand to the center? |
Subject:
Re: physics
From: saem_aero-ga on 21 Apr 2005 14:58 PDT |
First the difference between the air and water case can be attributed to the Ekman number, E = kin.viscosity/(omega*l^2) l being the characteristic length. omega being the rate of rotation (rad/s). Second during spindown the turbulent boundary layer at the wall and at the bottom of the bucket will grow. This should attribute to pushing particles initially away. A further reason particles may move toward the center of your bucket is Rossby waves. They move from one side of the bucket to the other during 'spin-down'. The thoery of their formation is due to a imperfect cylinder base, even a small deviation from a 90 degree wall/floor may produce them. Note that when you stop spinning the bucket the flow will also have inherit instabilities and may have a turbulent decay. Resources: -Personal Knowledge -Rossby, CG 1939 Relatoins between variations in intensity of the zonal circulation of the atmosphere and the displacements of semi-permanent centers of actions, J Mar. Res 2 38-55. (pages 86) -Schlichting, H Boundary Layer Theory, 8th edition, springer. -Batchelor, GK The THeory of Rotating Fluids, 1968, cambridge at the university press. I highly recommend the Theory of Rotating Fluids book - I think you would enjoy it. I know I did! :) |
Subject:
Re: physics
From: rwgoodwin-ga on 21 Apr 2005 15:36 PDT |
The comments by Jack_of_few_trades-ga and sublime1-ga were similar to my thoughts until I filled the bucket to the rim and placed a lid on it. (I used a plastic bucket on a phonograph turntable... if you are old enough to know what that is...) Turned on the turntable and the sand went to the edge. Turned off the turntable and the sand still went to the center. I first discovered this phenomenon with a wading pool 10' in diameter and 2' deep. I would walk around with the leaf strainer next to the edge to get the grass particles out. I noticed that when I stopped all the dirt went to the center of the pool. So I started a siphon with a garden hose and sucked all the dirt out of the center. I kept the pool clean in this manner from then on. The comments by Saem_aero-ga may be in the right direction. I'm going to read the book he suggested to see what I can find out. |
Subject:
Re: physics
From: saem_aero-ga on 21 Apr 2005 15:48 PDT |
rwgoodwin, I'm glad your going to take a look at this book. However I have to warn you that it is an advanced text. Just wanted to drop you a line so that you weren't surprised. Best, Steve |
Subject:
Re: physics
From: rwgoodwin-ga on 21 Apr 2005 20:05 PDT |
Steve, Thanks for your input, probably good enough for the $20. I have a degree in math and minored in physics for teaching many years ago. This problem has always puzzled me and I hoped for a solution here. You have at least sent me in the right direction, I think. Thanks again, R. Wilson Goodwin |
Subject:
Re: physics
From: xcarlx-ga on 21 Apr 2005 23:25 PDT |
What if you added some particles that were close to water density so you could see the water movement? |
Subject:
Re: physics
From: rwgoodwin-ga on 22 Apr 2005 07:37 PDT |
xcarlx-ga, I did try some fishing floats that I could alter the density by adding water to them. It didn't seem to make any difference. The force is greater than the movement of the water. When the turntable was turned on the sand on the bottom went to the edge. However, once the system had stabilized, (left on for 5 minutes) when I added more sand it went to the bottom and stayed. Meaning it did NOT move to the edge. When turned off, the force looks just as great to the center as it did to the edge when turned on. Wilson |
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