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Q: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement? ( No Answer,   15 Comments )
Question  
Subject: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
Category: Reference, Education and News > Consumer Information
Asked by: pcasey-ga
List Price: $50.00
Posted: 21 Apr 2005 16:55 PDT
Expires: 27 Apr 2005 09:12 PDT
Question ID: 512479
automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
Specifically for autos in the age range of 1991 to 1996
Manufacture, Model and color.
I am looking to buy the MOST inocuous transparent vehicle that hardly
ever gets pulled over, for myself.
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There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 22 Apr 2005 07:02 PDT
 
"statistics shows that certain colors of cars, fair or not, are more
likely to catch the eyes of officers. As a matter of neurology,
psychology, and human physiology, bright colors such as (1) yellow,
(2) orange, or (3) bright red (not dark red) seem to stand out more.
More citations are given to white or silver cars than any other, but
this seems to be a combination of their bright color with the fact
that there are substantially more cars of these colors than other
colors on the road."
http://www.expertlawfirm.com/areas/speed_citations.html

Althought you can have a slight advantage in some cars to not getting
pulled over, the advantage isn't great.  Police will not hesitate to
pull over any car if it is dangerous or very illegal.

The best way to not get pulled over is to be a good and safe driver. 
I've only gotten 1 ticket in my life and it was more than 5 years ago
so it's off my record now.  But the reason I don't get pulled over is
that I rarely go more than 5 mph over the limit and when I do, I am
sure to be in the middle of a pack so that I won't be the one picked
out should a cop decide to get someone.
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: tutuzdad-ga on 22 Apr 2005 07:19 PDT
 
I've been in law enforcement for more than 20 years and my father in
law enforceement for 20 years before me. For over forty years we have
collectively heard this silliness about which vehicles are more or
least likley to be pulled over or which ones are most likley to evade
police after a bank robbery. All the claims and statistics are utter
nonsense. Green stationwagons are no more likley to get away than a
red sports car. The issue is not related to the human senses so much
as it pertains to the level of training and resources avaiable to the
agency.

Statistiically there are too many variables to compiles such
statistics. Certain cars get stopped often, certain colors get stopped
often, certain streets are patrolled more frequently and yes, even
certain ages, races, nationalities or genders may be stopped more
often. All this skews any data that might be pertinent to your
question.

You can spend you $50 if you like, but I'm here to tell you that no
particular vehicle will afford you any greater level of invisablity
than any other, and anyone who tells you otherwise is yanking your
chain, relying on flawed data or they are confused themselves. Get
whatever kind of car you want and drive it like a law abiding citizen
- that's the best plan of action because THAT'S the car that gets
stopped less than any other.

tutuzdad-ga
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 22 Apr 2005 12:51 PDT
 
"Statistiically there are too many variables to compiles such
statistics. Certain cars get stopped often, certain colors get stopped
often, certain streets are patrolled more frequently and yes, even
certain ages, races, nationalities or genders may be stopped more
often. All this skews any data that might be pertinent to your
question."

These variables can all be accounted for in a regression that any
respectable (and hopefully even any below average) statistician can
run.  The number of variables does not skew data at all as long as
they are accounted for.  Not understanding statistics is perfectly ok,
and not trusting every statistic you see is probably a good thing, but
to say that statistics cannot add to knowledge about a matter is
ignoring a great tool that researchers have.

I think your post as a law enforcer does carry certain weight, but you
seemed to disagree with yourself using that second paragraph...  You
admit that there are these variables yet in the other paragraphs you
seem to say that there are no variables; "no particular vehicle will
afford you any greater level of invisablity than any other".
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: pinkfreud-ga on 22 Apr 2005 12:55 PDT
 
I've often heard people say that red sports cars are more likely to be
stopped by law enforcement officers than any other type of vehicle.
From observation, it seems likely to me that the drivers of red sports
cars may be committing more traffic violations than, say, the drivers
of beige 4-door sedans.

It's not the car that's being pulled over. It's the driver.
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: tutuzdad-ga on 22 Apr 2005 18:42 PDT
 
Amen to that.

A below average statistician may very well be able to get a result
from running the data but the answer doesn't necessarily indicate one
vehicle is more likely than another to be stopped by the police. Sure,
some car of some color and make and model is being stopped more than
all others, just as someone out there has to be the tallest or
heaviest person. But when you factor in all the variables it's like
trying to find the ugliest person - there are just too many features
and opinions to consider. Not the least of which, as Pink pointed out,
the actions of the driver and/or his passengers, in each and every
case per each and every color, of each and every make, of each and
every model, for each and every car in every circumstance and region
imaginable.

Even then you still have the issue of "police". What exacly is
"police"? Law enforcement in general is made up of FBI, ATF, Federal,
State, County, Municipal, all the way down to mall security. There are
many, many kinds of "police". Does the ATF stop the same kinds of cars
for the same kinds of reasons as the local constable? No.  See what I
mean. There ARE variable, but in the end no single vehicle will afford
you any more visability than any other. Yes, yes, I know, one WILL be
the least stopped if you do the math, but that doesn't make it the
least LIKLEY to be stopped, only the least likley based on what you
were able to derive from your flawed input. And since you can never
identify all the variables it WILL be flawed, I assure you.

To reiterate what Pink said, the car least likley to be stopped is the
one with the driver and/or passengers who is/are least suspicious.

tutuzdad-ga
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: pcasey-ga on 22 Apr 2005 23:55 PDT
 
This is a great discussion and I appreciate all the input. I agree the
best way to NOT be stopped is to Not violate any laws. Its common
sense, as with the best way to avoid a hang over is to NOT drink.
I am curios in the ?statistical? sense. Seems to me an Actuary at an
insurance company may have some data on this since it?s their
customers that receive the violation which is then noted on the
record, coincidentally raising the insurance rate. Just as it is more
expensive to insure some cars than others. I think this information
would not be easily acquired as each insurance company compiles its
own data on such things. Unless they share?
Still I would like to know, if there is a vehicle in this range of
years that is stopped less than other cars in this range of years.
Not that it would make a bit of difference if I drive ?the least
likely car to get pulled over? and drive it like an idiot, I?m sure to
get a ticket I do understand that.
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: czh-ga on 23 Apr 2005 01:38 PDT
 
You're not the first one to ask this question. Here's a very lengthy
discussion (with lots of car pix) that presents many viewpoints that
you might want to consider.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72517
Imola Red ZHP - pulled over more often? 


Who YOU are and what YOU look like may have a lot more to do with
getting pulled over. You will find lots of articles if you search for
"most likely to be pulled over" or  "racial profiling" or "driving
while black". This topic has been in the news a lot in the past few
years.
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: tutuzdad-ga on 23 Apr 2005 06:43 PDT
 
I guess my point is, no matter what statistics you read to support
this fictional notion, it won?t be accurate. I don?t recall the sides
of the road ensnared with police and red sports cars. Can you recall a
time when you saw a police office sitting on the side of the road
behind a red sports car? Probably not. The fact is, there are no more
red sports cars on the side of the road than any other cars. To add to
the confusion, police do not keep data on the colors of cars they
stop. Yes, there is a place for that identifier on the citation BUT,
in the first place, not all officers fill this identifier out, and
second, color is often a matter of opinion. I may say a car is brown,
you may call it rust and another may swear it was copper. Finally,
believe it or not, in my experience most traffic stops DO NOT result
in a ticket, but a verbal warning. The color, make, model or year of
the car that was stopped is never officially recorded AT ALL. So to
say that any statistics in this area would bear out any accurate data
is simply hooey.

I understand you'd like to find a source for such information but I
doubt you will, and if you do it will not be reliable enough to base
an informed major purchase on. Sorry.

tutuzdad-ga
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 24 Apr 2005 16:00 PDT
 
Tutuzdad, 
I wouldn't normally push an issue like this, but you seem so anti
statistics in this matter that I feel very compelled to show that your
ideas aren't well thought out.  Here is a publication from the US
Department of Justice (which I imagine you are quite familiar with in
your field) that shows statistics on racial profiling that are very
overwhelming.  I was shocked at the evidence and magnitude of the
problem.
http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/bja/184768.pdf

Read page 7 for some statistics that are well beyond explaining away. 
Some of the stats are about cars pulled over, and although some of the
variance can be explained away by other variables, there is no way
that all of this can be exluded as unreliable data.  I'll completely
agree with you that statistics are not perfect and perhaps even less
reliable in this matter than in most, but to ignore the huge evidence
that statistics puts before you in this matter would be an error on
your part.

"74.7% of speeders were white, while 17.5% were black.  In contrast,
according to MSP data, blacks constituded 79.2% of the drivers
searched"  There is much more to read including where some of this
data came from.  I do suggest you read through it and think about
who/what it is that your disagreeing with before disregarding all
statistics on the matter.
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: tutuzdad-ga on 24 Apr 2005 18:29 PDT
 
Several issues support my position:

1) This is not about racial profiling, it?s about the physical
appearance of a motor vehicle and the likelihood that those physical
characteristics somehow cause a large number of (supposedly) trained,
professional, unbiased police officers to effect constitutionally
justifiable stops on them based on their appearance alone. While I
appreciate your effort, the document you presented is apples in this
discussion about oranges.

2) The document you offered does indeed bear the name US Department of
Justice but the credit is misleading. The disclaimer (from Northwest
University ? page 2) warns that this document does not express the
opinions of the US government, and there for is not valid government
statistical data.

3) The document itself is flawed as it contained data relative only a
sampling of activities (page 4) in the city of San Diego, California,
the city of San Jose, California, the state of North Carolina and
Great Britain (all four of which, I might add, have entirely different
data collection systems, policies and procedures ? page 8). Anyone of
reasonable abilities would agree that two US cities, one rural state,
and a single European Country do not make universal statistics on ANY
subject!

I?m not anti-statistics, sir; I?m a realist. If you don?t have all the
facts, the statistics are wrong no matter what they say ? and that IS
a fact.

The actual source for the information, were it possible to ferret it
out (and it is not), would come directly from NIBRS (National
Incident-Based Reporting System). As someone who offciailly
contributes to the NIBRS system on a DAILY BASIS, I also happen to
know that even NIBRS is flawed where this and other types of
incomplete/inaccurate statistic are concerned. Believe me, I know
where the information is, the problem is that it is impossible to
glean accuratley.

Can NIBRS tell us with a degree of accuracy how many burglaries are
committed by juveniles? Yes, but ONLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE "KNOW" the
statistics.

Can NIBRS tell us how many green, 1999 Mazda 626's are pulled over
each year. No, because what is entered into the system on this
particular action is often incomplete (as I mentioned, where verbal
warnings, opinions about color, and lack of information are prevalent
on such a large scale)

So, in closing let me say this to you sir: I suggest you read through
and more carefully consider your document and who/what it is that your
defending before defending it.

tutuzdad-ga

NIBRS (National Incident-Based Reporting System)
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/nibrs.htm
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: omnivorous-ga on 24 Apr 2005 21:37 PDT
 
I don't understand all of the debate.  It's obviously a parked car.

Best regards,

Omnivorous-GA
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 25 Apr 2005 06:23 PDT
 
1) "This is not about racial profiling"
If you read through many of the comments (even ones that you directly
responded to), you would see that racial profiling came up several
times.  Though you did not directly respond to racial profiling, you
did say "The issue is not related to the human senses so much as it
pertains to the level of training and resources avaiable to the
agency.  Statistiically there are too many variables to compiles such
statistics."
Is race not noticed by human senses?  Therefore my comment was not out
of place.  Also, if it's the case that racial profiling does occur,
wouldn't that lead you to atleast consider the fact that car profiling
occurs?  Police officers are human.  They see things and it triggers a
response in their mind whether intentional or subconcious.  We all
have preconceived notions about reality.  You have these preconceived
notions that statistics in this area are bogus.  It's not always a bad
thing (although often it is) to have theis notions, but they do exist
and you cannot argue against their existence because again... we are
all human.

2) "The document you offered does indeed bear the name US Department of
Justice but the credit is misleading."
You read the document and read it thouroughly, I appreciate that.  But
notice that the Department of Justice trusts the authors enough to
fund them in this project; "supported with funding from the US
Department of Justice"  --page 2.  It's clear that the DoJ was
interested and concerned with this topic and paid a contractor to have
the work done (as is typical with government work).

3) "The document itself is flawed as it contained data relative only a
sampling of activities"
As I mentioned before, you seem anti-statistics in this matter.  But
from your arguements, you are anti-statistics in all matters.  There
is no such thing as a perfect sample unless you know every piece of
data there is in the world about the subject.  Fortunately
statisticians know how large of a sample they need to make reasonable
assumptions about the whole.  If making assumptions is an invalid
locical tool, then it would be nearly impossible to know anything. 
Like I said before, it's not perfect, but it is better than nothing. 
What you are arguing is that since the statistics aren't perfect then
they are worthless, but again I tell you that with this logic you are
suggesting that all statistics are worthless since none of them are
perfect.
Your absolutely right that the data in this survey isn't as good as it
could be on a larger scale.  But it is good data, it is from many
sources, and the scale is large enough so that it shouldn't be ignored
for its size.
Imagine you have a bag with 1 million marbles in it.  You know that
some are red and some are blue, but you have no idea what the %s are. 
If you pull out 100 random marbles and get 95 red and 5 blue, then
what would you think about the rest of the million?  Sure you'd like
more data, but if you don't believe that there are significantly more
red marbles than blue then you're not using good data that you have
collected.  Statistics don't have to be (and cannot be) perfect, but
they can tell a story that is not too far fetched from reality.

You say you're a realist and I do believe you.  You seem very logical
and you put your thoughts out there very well.  However I think you
are underestimating statistics greatly if you think the numbers put in
that report are worthless.  I wouldn't be surprised if your years in
law enforcement have engrained in you that officers are not to be
biased and they are not biased.  I do greatly respect any officer who
performs their duty in an unbiased way, but if you think of the
hundreds of thousands of officers in the US, how many can you vouch
for as being as unbiased as you?  You must admit that some are out
there who don't act as well as they should, the question is how many
and to what degree.  This type of statistic can start to lead to
answers.  It doesn't give exact answers, but it's a representation of
reality.
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: tutuzdad-ga on 25 Apr 2005 06:51 PDT
 
At the risk of allowing this customer's question to descend to the
level of an irritating message board thread, I must continue to
disagree, albeit briefly. I believe your speculation about the issue
is way off base and your speculation about my personal thoughts on the
matter and about my fellow law enforcement professionals are so off
the mark that they fail to even come close to "a represenation of
reality".
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: feuerbach-ga on 26 Apr 2005 08:11 PDT
 
The problem with this argument is that it's an ipso facto argument. 
Just because it happens to be the case that cars of XXXXX color and
XXXXX design happen to be pulled over less does not mean you will have
less of a chance of being pulled over in that car.

Think of it like this.  Of all arrests, 65 percent are men and 35
percent are women.  Does this mean if I commit a crime, and I'm a
woman, I'm less likely to be arrested?  Of course not.  The statistics
would simply point the fact that more men commit crimes than women. 
In the same way, perhaps dark green minivans are pulled over less, but
that doesn't mean your chances of being pulled over are reduced by
driving a dark green minivan.  Ipso facto, people driving dark green
minivans commit fewer traffic violations than do people who drive
sportscars.

In philosophy, we call this an ipso facto argument.  It means it's
just a matter of fact and not a matter of consequence.
Subject: Re: automobile Least Likely to be stopped by law enforcement?
From: tutuzdad-ga on 26 Apr 2005 09:04 PDT
 
Bravo! Well said.

finis

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