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Subject:
old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
Category: Miscellaneous Asked by: yvangou-ga List Price: $20.00 |
Posted:
08 Aug 2002 08:22 PDT
Expires: 07 Sep 2002 08:22 PDT Question ID: 52186 |
1-Mathieu Brasseur alias La Citardy came to Acadie, actually Nova Scotia, Canada, about 1700. What is the word Citardy about ? (meaning, origin) 2-At Mervent, Vendée, France, there is a castle called La Citardière. What is the word Citardière about ? (meaning, origin) |
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Subject:
Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
Answered By: brad-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:36 PDT |
Hello yvangou-ga To begin our search I started with a Google search on "Citardy" and started making notes, and having thoughts about this word. ***************************** Nice site of the castle of the Citardiere The castle of Citardière is built little after 1625 per Jacques de Morienne, receiver of the Sizes of Fontenay http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.vacances-en-vendee.com/Ch%25E2teau_citardiere.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BCitardi%25C3%25A8re%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.accueil-vendee.com/vendee/creperie-chateau-citardiere.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BCitardi%25C3%25A8re%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG *************************** "That starts when the District of Pouzauges decides to install a dechetery close to our village of Citardière. (Commune of Montournais) a dechetery," http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.horanet.fr/jchauvet/pie.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BCitardi%25C3%25A8re%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG ******************************** Notice that the castle names the village of Citardiere and that families are often referred to by their village as :"DROUINEAU de La CITARDIÈRE or, Drouineau of the Citardiere. http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/geneadic/fasc39.htm *********************************************** Also, note that Braseaux is referred to in the same manner: ....dit la Citardy is tranlated as "Known as Citardy" and it is very likely that Citardy is a New World corruption of the familiar French term "de La Citardiere"; therefore, Brasseaux dit La Citardy in France would actually be Brasseaux de La Citardiere or among the Acadians Brasseaux known as the Citard(iere)y. Mathieu Brasseaux dit La Citardy married Jeanne Celestin dit Bellemere and settled at Grand Pre in the early 1700s.104 Another Brasseaux, Pierre, probably no kin to Mathieu, arrived at Port Royal by 1691, the year he married Gabrielle, a daughter of Michel de Forest, and moved on to Pisiquid.105 http://www.acadiansingray.com/chapter%2001b.htm Google translate: dit Citardy=known as Citardy ************************************* In the Acadian history(http://www.acadian-cajun.com/grandpre.htm), there was mention of the people changing their names to denote the things important to them such as their jobs. Thus, Instead of Brad-ga, I would be Bradga dit Researcher...in time the family line might just be noted as "Researcher". In that Acadian tradition it seems that Brasseaux let himself be known as the Citard(iere)y for the village he came from as would the (although a fictional story..a common occurance at Ellis Island) Corleone family taking their name from their village. Then, there's the village, Citardiere....... ********************************** |
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Subject:
Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:31 PDT |
Greetings! I could find no history on the name but I did discover a lengthy article on the Acadians in Nova Scotia which included a reference to La Citary. The article may be of interest to you if you have not already read it. Genesis of a People - The Acadians in Nova Scotia, 1604-1713 http://www.acadiansingray.com/chapter%2001b.htm and a genealogy: 1703 Acadian Census - Acadian/Cajun Genealogy and History http://www.acadian-cajun.com/1703cens.htm The word "citardy" may be Cajun. In French, "brasseur" means "brewer" so it is possible the word "citardy" or "citard" had a Cajun meaning of brewer/beer/ale though I could discover no direct reference. In Spanish, "citar" means "to cite" and "guitar" and the word origin may be Catalan. Some history of Catalonia from Heather Hayes Translations: "Catalan is a language that developed parallel to French, Spanish, Rumanian (which just means "Roman"), Portuguese, and other romance languages, or those with a base in "Roman", or Latin, the language of Rome. In fact, Catalan has very much influenced the development of Castilian (Spanish) and French, as it was the most widely read and spoken language being used in literature, science, and commerce in the southern half of Europe from the 8th to the 15th century, Catalonia being a superpower that controlled all of the Mediterranean coast all the way to Greece. The first printed texts in Catalan date about 60 years before the the first printed texts in Spanish, and over the years, Catalan itself developed into several different languages, including Occitanian (from Aquitaine), Provençal, Aranès (from the Vall d'Aran), Catalan and Valencian." In Catalan, "citar" can mean "to cite; to make an appointment" and also "guitar" so Brassuer may have been a troubadour/musician or someone in the government dealing with appointments or public speaking. However, the "La" is the feminine for "the"- "Le" would be the masculine so this is an interesting development. I have a friend that speaks fluent Catalan and I will ask her about the name/word and if she can provide more clarity, I will post the information here. She also knows a number of french historians and has volunteered to circulate your question among them. I am hesitant to post this as an answer but if you find the research helpful I will most certainly accept all or part of the fee. |
Subject:
Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:41 PDT |
First reply received from French Historian: Hi. Apparently this is a name "le citardy" given to a guy, Matthieu Brasseur (?), who settled in Nova Scotia in the 18th century. It seems to have been a sort of nickname. > From the genealogy sites I've seen, his name varied from Mathieu (one 't') Brasseur to Brasseur-Lebrasseur to Brasseau to Brasseaux and his nickname was "La Citardy". > > I think your friend would have to dig into some history books to find out > where the nickname came from. Still looking for you even though brad-ga offered his research as an answer. |
Subject:
Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:49 PDT |
Second reply received: > I've written to a couple of Acadian archive centres in Nova Scotia to ask > if they know or to suggest some good resources. Will let you know as soon > as I hear back from them. |
Subject:
Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: brad-ga on 08 Aug 2002 14:22 PDT |
Like journalist-ga, I'm hooked on Acadian history this day. 1. The word "dit" meant "known as" Google translate: dit Citardy=known as Citardy 2. Confirmed: Old Mathieu first married Celestin Brewer-Lebrasseur says Citardy, Mathieu Sexe: Masculine Birth: about 1650 Death: May 27, 1733 with Large-Pre, [ Kings ], NS, EDGE Burial: May 28, 1733 with Large-Pre, [ Kings ], NS, EDGE Family: United: Célestin says Bellemère, Jeanne Sexe: Female Birth: about 1689 Also, Mathieu Brasseaux dit La Citardy married Jeanne Celestin dit Bellemere and settled at Grand Pre in the early 1700s.104 http://www.acadiansingray.com/chapter%2001b.htm So, La Citardy married Bellemere and in old France the closest we can get to Citardy is the Castle Citardiere which is also referred to as a village Citardiere in some sites. In Verdee near the forest, this building appears to be the first time the word is mentioned, and it is likely he is connected to that area as opposed to having an occupation related to the word "Citardy". Checking a few French sites via Yahoo France and a few French dictionaries yielded no results for a derivation of a word called "Citardy" which places it in the nature of a nickname. Notice his wife was dit Bellemere. In French, "belle mere" means beautiful woman, and we might reasonably conclude that it is a nickname and that Citardy is also a nickname. However, she acquired the extension legitimately from her father: Jeanne Célestin-Bellemère, n. circa 1689, (fille de André Célestin-Bellemère )http://brazeau.rene.tripod.com/ 3. We can only know that Matthieu had this other name or nickname, but we can be sure that it did not pass down from his generations as all his children are listed: I. Mathieu Brasseux/Brasseur/Lebrasseur n. 1702, Grand-Pré (Acadie), m. 1727, à Cobequid (Acadie), Anne-Marie Pitre, (fille de Jean Pitre et Françoise Babin). A. Anne-Théotiste Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1728, Acadie, m. 2 sep 1753, à Port-Toulouse (Acadie), Joseph Lejeune, (fils de Pierre Lejeune et Jeanne Benoit). B. Pierre Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1731, Acadie, m. 20 aoû 1753, à Port-Lajoie (Acadie), Marguerite-Josèphe Gaudet, (fille de Jean-Baptiste Godet et Josephte (Durin) Darois). C. Marguerite-Josèphe Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1733, Acadie, m. 15 jul 1760, à Restigouche, QC., Georges Larocque, (fils de François Larocque et Marie Capelan). D. Brigitte Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1735, Acadie, m. (1) 9 jan 1758, à Port-Lajoie (Acadie), Martial Tessier, (fils de Jacques Tessier et Suzanne Gaspard) m. (2) 26 sep 1769, à Martinique, François Rousseau, n. Rouen, France, (fils de François Rousseau et Catherine Paillet). Brigitte décès 17 jan 1771, Martinique. E. François Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1737, Ile-St-Jean (Acadie), d. 24 fév 1757, Port-Lajoie (Acadie). F. Mathurin Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1739, Port Royal, Acadie, m. 25 jun 1763, à Paspébiac, QC., Catherine-Thérèse Duguay, n. circa 1747, Pabos, QC., (fille de René Duguay et Marguerite LeBreton) d. 4 avr 1829, Paspébiac, QC. Mathurin décès 8 jul 1828, Paspébiac, QC. G. François-Xavier Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1741, Acadie, m. 29 mar 1780, à Bonaventure, QC., Louise Gauthier, (fille de Joseph Gauthier et Marguerite Bujold). François-Xavier décès 13 jan 1797, Paspébiac, QC. H. Elizabeth-Gertrude Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1745, Acadie, m. (1) 27 sep 1776, à Paspébiac, QC., Bénoni Cyr, (fils de Jean Cyr et Marie-Josèphe Gautreau) m. (2) 5 nov 1787, à Paspébiac, QC., Jean Dickson. I. Jean-Baptiste Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1746, Acadie, m. à Paspébiac, QC., Charlotte Aubry, n. 1741, d. 7 nov 1821, Percé, QC. Jean-Baptiste décès 18 fév 1818, Paspébiac, QC. J. Marie-Josèphe Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1748, Acadie, m. 1768, à Paspébiac, QC., Jean Chapados, (fils de Jean Chapados et Catherine Larocque). Marie-Josèphe décès 2 avr 1819, Paspébiac, QC. K. Pélagie Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1752, Ile-St-Jean (Acadie). http://brazeau.rene.tripod.com ******************************* None were named Citardy. Yet, he was sometimes called simply Citardy as noted here for settlers to Les Mines: LES MINES "LA CITARDY, his wife, 4 boys, 2 girls, 1 arms bearer. " http://members.tripod.com/~acadie1755/census_1703.html ********************* It appears that he had a nickname, Citardy, which probably came from his old French neighborhood near the Castle, but the records show the name did not stick to his family, rather they were Brasseux/Brasseur (Brewer in English as has been noted). ******************************* Another site discusses the problems with spellings. This can easily lead to conclude similarly on the spelling of Citardy from Citardiere. "To my knowledge, the original spelling was probably Brasseur, which is French for Brewer. However, when the French people moved to the U.S., many spelling errors were made. Most of the immigrants were illiterate, and didn't speak English, while many of the clerks were English (and knew little or nothing of other languages). The names were spelled the way the clerk thought they would be and often the person put an X as their mark at the end of the name someone else wrote. I've seen Julien written Zelien because of the way the French pronounce the J sound, and Brasseur became Brasseaux. I suppose it is very possible that Brasselle was a corruption of Brasseur. I just happen to have a book here listing church and parish records in Louisiana for the time period you were asking about and found no listing of any Brasselle, the closest was of course Brasseur...spoken properly, that R at the end would barely be pronounced, so it could sound like an L. The person you are looking for could easily be related to the line I am researching, which currently starts with Mathieu Brasseur, who was probably born in 1660 in either Canada or France. He was married to Jeanne Celestin who was born in France about 1688." http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=message&r=an&p=surnames.brasseur&m=2.3.4 *************************************** Concluding, Citardy most likely is a corruption of Citardiere and issues from the area around the famous castle, but Matthiew did not pass the nickname down through his immediate children. Since the name is prevalent in the world today and no French root appears, the word seems to follow the tradition of folk taking the name of their old hometown. Brad-ga |
Subject:
Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 20:06 PDT |
Greetings again. Brad did great historical research on your question, and I am still waiting to hear from the Acadian historian. After researching my original comment, I hit to enter the post to find Brad had locked the question to answer (when the question is locked, there is no way to post a comment yet while composing in the comment box, I had no idea he had locked the question). Since I had already done the research for my comment, I went ahead and posted it in case you found it helpful. I clarify this because Brad and I were working at the same time without the other knowing (he in the answer box and me in the comment box) and I wanted to clarify there was no rivalry for the answer - we Google researchers don't attempt to one-up each other. I simply wanted you to have the info in case it was of assistance as I had already worked for a while on the information. I've bookmarked this question and will add further comment if the historians turn up more information. I also wish to thank Heather Hayes of HHTranslations for all her assistance with the Catalan information. |
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