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Q: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever ( Answered,   5 Comments )
Question  
Subject: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: yvangou-ga
List Price: $20.00
Posted: 08 Aug 2002 08:22 PDT
Expires: 07 Sep 2002 08:22 PDT
Question ID: 52186
1-Mathieu Brasseur alias La Citardy came to Acadie, actually Nova
Scotia, Canada, about 1700. What is the word Citardy about ? (meaning,
origin)

2-At Mervent, Vendée, France, there is a castle called La Citardière.
What is the word Citardière about ? (meaning, origin)
Answer  
Subject: Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
Answered By: brad-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:36 PDT
 
Hello yvangou-ga 
To begin our search I started with a Google search on "Citardy" and
started making notes, and having thoughts about this word.
*****************************
Nice site of the castle of the Citardiere

The castle of Citardière is built little after 1625 per Jacques de
Morienne, receiver of the Sizes of Fontenay

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.vacances-en-vendee.com/Ch%25E2teau_citardiere.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BCitardi%25C3%25A8re%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.accueil-vendee.com/vendee/creperie-chateau-citardiere.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BCitardi%25C3%25A8re%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG
***************************
"That starts when the District of Pouzauges decides to install a
dechetery close to our village of Citardière. (Commune of Montournais)
a dechetery,"
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.horanet.fr/jchauvet/pie.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BCitardi%25C3%25A8re%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG
********************************
Notice that the castle names the village of Citardiere and that
families are often referred to by their village as :"DROUINEAU de La
CITARDIÈRE or, Drouineau of the Citardiere.
http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/geneadic/fasc39.htm
***********************************************
Also, note that Braseaux is referred to in the same manner:
....dit la Citardy is tranlated as "Known as Citardy" and it is very
likely that Citardy is a New World corruption of the familiar French
term "de La Citardiere"; therefore, Brasseaux dit La Citardy in France
would actually be
Brasseaux de La Citardiere or among the Acadians Brasseaux known as
the Citard(iere)y.
Mathieu Brasseaux dit La Citardy married Jeanne Celestin dit Bellemere
and settled at Grand Pre in the early 1700s.104
Another Brasseaux, Pierre, probably no kin to Mathieu, arrived at Port
Royal by 1691, the year he married Gabrielle, a daughter of Michel de
Forest, and moved on to Pisiquid.105
http://www.acadiansingray.com/chapter%2001b.htm
Google translate: dit Citardy=known as Citardy
*************************************
In the Acadian history(http://www.acadian-cajun.com/grandpre.htm),
there was mention of the people changing their names to denote the
things important to them such as their jobs. Thus, Instead of Brad-ga,
I would be Bradga dit Researcher...in time the family line might just
be noted as "Researcher".
In that Acadian tradition it seems that Brasseaux let himself be known
as
the Citard(iere)y for the village he came from as would the (although
a fictional story..a common occurance at Ellis Island) Corleone family
taking their name from their village.
Then, there's the village, Citardiere.......

**********************************
Comments  
Subject: Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:31 PDT
 
Greetings!  I could find no history on the name but I did discover a
lengthy article on the Acadians in Nova Scotia which included a
reference to La Citary.  The article may be of interest to you if you
have not already read it.

Genesis of a People - The Acadians in Nova Scotia, 1604-1713   
http://www.acadiansingray.com/chapter%2001b.htm

and a genealogy:

1703 Acadian Census - Acadian/Cajun Genealogy and History
http://www.acadian-cajun.com/1703cens.htm

The word "citardy" may be Cajun.  In French, "brasseur" means "brewer"
so it is possible the word "citardy" or "citard" had a Cajun meaning
of brewer/beer/ale though I could discover no direct reference.

In Spanish, "citar" means "to cite" and "guitar" and the word origin
may be Catalan.  Some history of Catalonia from Heather Hayes
Translations:

"Catalan is a language that developed parallel to French, Spanish,
Rumanian (which just means "Roman"), Portuguese, and other romance
languages, or those with a base in "Roman", or Latin, the language of
Rome.
In fact, Catalan has very much influenced the development of Castilian
(Spanish) and French, as it was the most widely read and spoken
language being used in literature, science, and commerce in the
southern half of Europe from the 8th to the 15th century, Catalonia
being a superpower that controlled all of the Mediterranean coast all
the way to Greece. The first printed texts in Catalan date about 60
years before the the first printed texts in Spanish, and over the
years, Catalan itself developed into several different languages,
including Occitanian (from Aquitaine), Provençal, Aranès (from the
Vall d'Aran), Catalan and Valencian."

In Catalan, "citar" can mean "to cite; to make an appointment" and
also "guitar" so Brassuer may have been a troubadour/musician or
someone in the government dealing with appointments or public
speaking.  However, the "La" is the feminine for "the"- "Le" would be
the masculine so this is an interesting development.

I have a friend that speaks fluent Catalan and I will ask her about
the name/word and if she can provide more clarity, I will post the
information here.  She also knows a number of french historians and
has volunteered to circulate your question among them.  I am hesitant
to post this as an answer but if you find the research helpful I will
most certainly accept all or part of the fee.
Subject: Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:41 PDT
 
First reply received from French Historian:

Hi. Apparently this is a name "le citardy" given to a guy, Matthieu
Brasseur (?),  who settled in Nova Scotia in the 18th century. It seems to have
been a sort of nickname.
>
From the genealogy sites I've seen, his name varied from Mathieu (one
't') Brasseur to Brasseur-Lebrasseur to Brasseau to Brasseaux and his nickname
was "La Citardy".
>
> I think your friend would have to dig into some history books to find out
> where the nickname came from.

Still looking for you even though brad-ga offered his research as an answer.
Subject: Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 11:49 PDT
 
Second reply received:

> I've written to a couple of Acadian archive centres in Nova Scotia to ask
> if they know or to suggest some good resources. Will let you know as soon
> as I hear back from them.
Subject: Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: brad-ga on 08 Aug 2002 14:22 PDT
 
Like journalist-ga, I'm hooked on Acadian history this day.

1. The word "dit" meant "known as"
Google translate: dit Citardy=known as Citardy
2. Confirmed:
Old Mathieu first married Celestin
Brewer-Lebrasseur says Citardy, Mathieu Sexe: Masculine
Birth: about 1650
Death: May 27, 1733 with Large-Pre, [ Kings ], NS, EDGE
Burial: May 28, 1733 with Large-Pre, [ Kings ], NS, EDGE
Family: United: Célestin says Bellemère, Jeanne Sexe: Female
Birth: about 1689
Also, 
Mathieu Brasseaux dit La Citardy married Jeanne Celestin dit Bellemere
and settled at Grand Pre in the early 1700s.104
http://www.acadiansingray.com/chapter%2001b.htm
So, La Citardy married Bellemere and in old France the closest we can
get to Citardy is the Castle Citardiere which is also referred to as a
village Citardiere in some sites. In Verdee near the forest, this
building appears to be the first time the word is mentioned, and it is
likely he is connected to that area as opposed to having an occupation
related to the word "Citardy".  Checking a few French sites via Yahoo
France and a few French dictionaries yielded  no results for a
derivation of a word called "Citardy" which places it in the nature of
a nickname.  Notice his wife was dit Bellemere.  In French, "belle
mere" means beautiful woman, and we might reasonably conclude that it
is a nickname and that Citardy is also a nickname.  However, she
acquired the extension legitimately from her father: Jeanne
Célestin-Bellemère, n. circa 1689, (fille de André Célestin-Bellemère
)http://brazeau.rene.tripod.com/
3. We can only know that Matthieu had this other name or nickname, but
we can be sure that it did not pass down from his generations as all
his children are listed:
I. Mathieu Brasseux/Brasseur/Lebrasseur n. 1702, Grand-Pré (Acadie),
m. 1727, à Cobequid (Acadie), Anne-Marie Pitre, (fille de Jean Pitre
et Françoise Babin).

A. Anne-Théotiste Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1728, Acadie, m. 2 sep 1753, à
Port-Toulouse (Acadie), Joseph Lejeune, (fils de Pierre Lejeune et
Jeanne Benoit).

B. Pierre Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1731, Acadie, m. 20 aoû 1753, à
Port-Lajoie (Acadie), Marguerite-Josèphe Gaudet, (fille de
Jean-Baptiste Godet et Josephte (Durin) Darois).

C. Marguerite-Josèphe Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1733, Acadie, m. 15 jul
1760, à Restigouche, QC., Georges Larocque, (fils de François Larocque
et Marie Capelan).

D. Brigitte Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1735, Acadie, m. (1) 9 jan 1758, à
Port-Lajoie (Acadie), Martial Tessier, (fils de Jacques Tessier et
Suzanne Gaspard) m. (2) 26 sep 1769, à Martinique, François Rousseau,
n. Rouen, France, (fils de François Rousseau et Catherine Paillet).
Brigitte décès 17 jan 1771, Martinique.

E. François Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1737, Ile-St-Jean (Acadie), d. 24 fév
1757, Port-Lajoie (Acadie).

F. Mathurin Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1739, Port Royal, Acadie, m. 25 jun
1763, à Paspébiac, QC., Catherine-Thérèse Duguay, n. circa 1747,
Pabos, QC., (fille de René Duguay et Marguerite LeBreton) d. 4 avr
1829, Paspébiac, QC. Mathurin décès 8 jul 1828, Paspébiac, QC.

G. François-Xavier Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1741, Acadie, m. 29 mar 1780,
à Bonaventure, QC., Louise Gauthier, (fille de Joseph Gauthier et
Marguerite Bujold). François-Xavier décès 13 jan 1797, Paspébiac, QC.

H. Elizabeth-Gertrude Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1745, Acadie, m. (1) 27 sep
1776, à Paspébiac, QC., Bénoni Cyr, (fils de Jean Cyr et Marie-Josèphe
Gautreau) m. (2) 5 nov 1787, à Paspébiac, QC., Jean Dickson.

I. Jean-Baptiste Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1746, Acadie, m. à Paspébiac,
QC., Charlotte Aubry, n. 1741, d. 7 nov 1821, Percé, QC. Jean-Baptiste
décès 18 fév 1818, Paspébiac, QC.

J. Marie-Josèphe Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1748, Acadie, m. 1768, à
Paspébiac, QC., Jean Chapados, (fils de Jean Chapados et Catherine
Larocque). Marie-Josèphe décès 2 avr 1819, Paspébiac, QC.

K. Pélagie Brasseux/Brasseur n. 1752, Ile-St-Jean (Acadie). 
http://brazeau.rene.tripod.com
*******************************
None were named Citardy.
Yet, he was sometimes called simply Citardy as noted here for settlers
to Les Mines:
LES MINES		
"LA CITARDY, his wife, 4 boys, 2 girls, 1 arms bearer. "
http://members.tripod.com/~acadie1755/census_1703.html
*********************
It appears that  he had a nickname, Citardy, which probably came from
his old French neighborhood near the Castle, but the records show the
name did not stick to his family, rather they were Brasseux/Brasseur
(Brewer in English as has been noted).
*******************************
Another site discusses the problems with spellings.  This can easily
lead to conclude similarly on the spelling of Citardy from Citardiere.
"To my knowledge, the original spelling was probably Brasseur, which
is French for Brewer. However, when the French people moved to the
U.S., many spelling errors were made. Most of the immigrants were
illiterate, and didn't speak English, while many of the clerks were
English (and knew little or nothing of other languages). The names
were spelled the way the clerk thought they would be and often the
person put an X as their mark at the end of the name someone else
wrote. I've seen Julien written Zelien because of the way the French
pronounce the J sound, and Brasseur became Brasseaux. I suppose it is
very possible that Brasselle was a corruption of Brasseur. I just
happen to have a book here listing church and parish records in
Louisiana for the time period you were asking about and found no
listing of any Brasselle, the closest was of course Brasseur...spoken
properly, that R at the end would barely be pronounced, so it could
sound like an L. The person you are looking for could easily be
related to the line I am researching, which currently starts with
Mathieu Brasseur, who was probably born in 1660 in either Canada or
France. He was married to Jeanne Celestin who was born in France about
1688." http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=message&r=an&p=surnames.brasseur&m=2.3.4
***************************************

Concluding, Citardy most likely is a corruption of Citardiere and 
issues from the area around the famous castle, but Matthiew did not
pass the nickname down through his immediate children. Since the name
is prevalent in the world today and no French root appears, the word
seems to follow the tradition of folk taking the name of their old
hometown.

Brad-ga
Subject: Re: old French word, possibly refering to a place, or forest or whatever
From: journalist-ga on 08 Aug 2002 20:06 PDT
 
Greetings again.  Brad did great historical research on your question,
and I am still waiting to hear from the Acadian historian.  After
researching my original comment, I hit to enter the post to find Brad
had locked the question to answer (when the question is locked, there
is no way to post a comment yet while composing in the comment box, I
had no idea he had locked the question).  Since I had already done the
research for my comment, I went ahead and posted it in case you found
it helpful.  I clarify this because Brad and I were working at the
same time without the other knowing (he in the answer box and me in
the comment box) and I wanted to clarify there was no rivalry for the
answer - we Google researchers don't attempt to one-up each other.  I
simply wanted you to have the info in case it was of assistance as I
had already worked for a while on the information.  I've bookmarked
this question and will add further comment if the historians turn up
more information.  I also wish to thank Heather Hayes of
HHTranslations for all her assistance with the Catalan information.

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