Hi,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4994729586

Would you please give me some idea as to what this watch is and how
much it retails for and does the price it was sold for on this auction
is considered to be a good deal as a form of an opinion?

I would welcome comments by researchers and readers as well. :-)

-Mao

Dear Mao, 

First of all, I got a confirmation from Chopard (who were in general
very nice): they don't use zirconia at all (only diamonds) and this is
obviously a copy.

So, how to beware scams and copies on eBay: 
------------------------------------------

General Advices
===============
1. Always check the seller's history: how many items have they sold?
Of which type? What are the reviews? You can do that by clicking on
the seller's name and reaching their member's profile: read the
positive as well as the negative reviews. Try to see if there are any
recurring clients or anything that could indicate shill biddings.

2. How many items have been sold? Don't buy anything too expensive
(laptops, plasma screens, etc.) from first-time sellers. The sales
history would also show you if this seller has sold anything like this
before: if not, it is possible that someone has stolen their identity:
" If they have been selling socks and are suddenly selling Plasma TVs
at great prices, the alarm bells should be ringing. If they have never
sold a single item and the first thing they are selling is a high
priced item, proceed, but with caution." (SOURCE: The Auction Guild,
"FRAUD - How to AVOID it",
<http://www.auctionguild.com/generic118.html>).

3. Try to communicate with the seller. Questions about the product,
about shipment terms, etc. - could tell you a lot about the person.
See if the name, phone number, fit those

4. The auction does last a week or two, just the minimum 3 days. 

5. Try to be as safe as possible with your transactions: use the
safest way to pay for the product. Avoid sending money through Western
Union, which is just as good as flushing it down the drain in case of
fraud. "If the person is a seller who offers PayPal, go to the PayPal
site and try to send the seller a mock payment to see if the email
address matches the one in the end of auction notice. If their past
auctions show a PayPal logo, but PayPal does not show the email
address you have as being a current PayPal account, do not proceed -
and turn them in immediately, as the account has probably been
hijacked." (SOURCE: ibid). The Auction Guild suggests that the safest
ways are credit card (you can dispute the charge), cheque/money order
(one needs a valid, identifiable bank account for that)

6. Demand shipment in a way that would enable you to track the
delivery on each stage, especially with expensive goods.


Special Advices Regarding Expensive or Designer Good
====================================================

1. I will say that very carefully: be suspicious of new expensive or
designer good sold on eBay. While it is possible that one received a
pair of Gucci shoes or a Prada bag as a present, and they sell it on
eBay; most designers sell only through official stores, or points in
large department stores, not through eBay sellers, and it would be
impossible to be a "power seller" of such things.

2. Ask the seller: is it new or used; is it original or replica.
First, they might answer honestly: "This is not an original Chopard,
but a replica". As you've seen, there are sites specialising in such
thing. Even if they don't answer the question regarding authenticity
honestly, they might regarding the question whether it is new or not -
after all, for most customers, "new" is good. Second, it will help you
assess if it is worth buying or not: if they answer that this is an
original new Chopard (yet the price is 0.01 of the price of a new
Chopard) there's place for suspicion. No free lunches on eBay.

3. Research the product: see on Google or Froogle if the price is
reasonable for this item; on ePinions if there are any reviews on this
product that could tell you more about it.
epinions: 
<http://www.epinions.com> 
Researching the item would also give you information if this item,
when legit, is usually provided with a serial number or any other
distinctive features.

4. The picture: someone selling used designer clothing/watch would
take a picture of them in their current condition, not copy the
details and the picture  from a picture of a new item. About.com's
Crystal Coons writes: "One of the telltale signs of a fake auction is
the lack of photos. You want to make sure they have plenty of clear
photos before you even think of bidding. If in doubt, ask for
additional photos. A good seller will always do whatever they can to
help sell the item. Especially when dealing with a designer item that
is often replicated, you want to make sure you're getting photos of
the actual bag you'd be receiving."  (SOURCE: Crystal Coons, "Tips for
Ebay Shopping", About Tenn Fashion, About.com,
<http://teenfashion.about.com/od/shopping/a/shopebay.htm>).

5. About.com adds an important tip regarding the description on the
auction itself: "There are certain things you should look for when
Ebay shopping. First, read through the auction information carefully.
See if they describe the item in good detail. For example, if an
auction for a Dior bag lists only ?Dior Bag?, it seems a little
suspicious. An auction that reads ?Monogram Christian Dior Saddle Bag,
Blue on denim with gold accents? is a little more trustworthy, as it
would appear they've taken the time to look at the bag and describe
it. The more description, the better." (SOURCE: Crystal Coons, "Tips
for Ebay Shopping", About Tenn Fashion, About.com,
<http://teenfashion.about.com/od/shopping/a/shopebay.htm>).


Further Reading
---------------

Empire Security Corporation: Ebay Fraud Hacker - Is the Listing
Legit?,  May 14, 2003
<http://www.empiresecurity.com/hello/Article52.htm>

Manley Labs: Bogus eBay <http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/16x2FRAUD.html> 

I hope this answers your question. Please contact me if you need any
further clarifications on this answer befoer you rate it.

Happy bidding!

---

Request for Answer Clarification by 6ra3-ga on 23 May 2005 02:38 PDT

Hello Politicalguru,

I'll need a few days to get back to base to go over this, thank you very much! :-)

-Mao

---

Clarification of Answer by politicalguru-ga on 23 May 2005 06:17 PDT

Dear Mao, 

Let me refer in the meanwhile to some samll details pertaining mainly
to Chopard  that I've neglected to mention:

- In the case of Chopard, they have an online catalogue. The catalogue
apparently lists all of their current products.

- God is in the small details: size (proportions between the fish and
the rest of the watch); size of the tuner; and of course colour.

However, excpet for that, I must say that you need to inspect the
watch closely (not from a picture) to see the differences. A good
picture could distort the differences - for example - between diamond
and zirconia.

Hi! 

Sorry I travelled and just got back.

If I have any clarifications, I'll ask them later.. for now I'll rate the question.

-Mao

There is something odd about the bid history
- kimberlyo8777 is using an automated bidding tool

The seller, 'reeos' obviously has a good supply of such watches
- earlier sales were well below $375, so my suspicious mind suspects shilling
- my bet is a failed shill
- 'lizardnation' looks like a peculiar account - all five transactions 2002 ??

Realistically watches are worth very little.
Something that sells for $50 in Duty Free starts off at $5 in Japan
(or maybe China)

A long time ago, they got the mechanisms down to costing cents to produce.
The only real cost is the case, strap and assembly.
Even with real diamonds the material costs are pretty low.
Zircon is dirt cheap - but looks much the same.

My guess is that the seller is getting them for about $25 from a
wholesaler who is paying around $20 - but for large numbers.

I also suspect that they are 'ethnically targeted', which is smart,
I'm intrigued by the symbolism of three fish.

Hello Frde,

I appreciate the background on the business and supply chain.  How
much do you think the watch retails for in shops?  How would on go
about getting to know more about the particular item they're
interested in when they run into them on eBay for example?

Very valuable information, thank you very much! :-)

-Mao

Dear Mao, 

While I also accpet frde-ga's suspicion regrading the bid itself, I
have some interesting things to say about the watch. The watch is
described as "Women's CZ watch Chopard (fish-white)". Chopard is a
Swiss Jewelry manufacturer, and the watches are popular with some
celebrities. Their site could be found at:

Chopard
<ttp://www.chopard.com/> 

The watch on bid is called "Happy Beach". You can see "Happy Beach"
models (unfortunately not the white one) here:
Happy Beach 
<http://www.chopard.com/worldwide/fl/1w_hsport28_8347_402.htm> 

Chopard CZ (cubic zirconia) watches sell on Froogle between $99.00 and $159.99 
Lowest Prices First
<http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl=en&lr=&tab=wf&cat=1326&q=chopard+cz&btnG=Search+Froogle&scoring=p>
Highest Prices First 
<http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl=en&lr=&tab=wf&cat=1326&q=chopard+cz&btnG=Search+Froogle&scoring=pd>

That would probably mean that the seller has made a "good deal" on
eBay (regardless of whether it was shill bidding or not).

The problem is...

(and this is why I am posting this as a comment, unless you decide otherwise)

Chopard "Happy Beach" is not a CZ watch but a diamond one. Happy
Beach, indeed, costs much much more:
<http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl=en&lr=&tab=wf&cat=1326&q=chopard+happy+beach+fish+white&btnG=Search+Froogle>

The band is also different. No watch with the same band and design
appears on Chopard's site, as far as I could tell. Of course, it is
possible that Chopard don't have this design anymore, but I would be
also suspicious with the price in the other direction (it is a price
way too low for a diamond Chopard).

Is it a Chopard replica? So how come there is a Chopard logo on the
picture? Is it forgery? Without any evidences I cannot say so - I
might have to eat my hat if Chopard came back to me and said that they
do (or did) carry a white, cz, "Happy Beach" watch, or that I
neglected to have a look at one of the sections of their catalogue,
and this is not a "Happy Beach" but a similar watch.

Maybe, when I make enough money out of $2 questions, I'd buy myself a
Happy Beach fish, too.

Hello Politicalguru-ga,

Clarified a lot for me, I would appreciate it if you can dig for the
watch and make sure it isn't a model that Chopard carries or carried
to allow me to learn from this in evaluating offers on eBay that I
might get interested in.

Do you think you're up to it? Is the amount suitable for the task?

-Mao

Hi Mao,

I did not realize that this was a 'copy watch'
- Polly's acute eyesight and research casts a new light on the subject.

A copy watch cannot be safely sold in a retail shop in the USA.
- not without a short lease.

Flogging 'Bling' is an interesting subject, Ratner Gerald Signet and US profits
- there are gold bugs out there
Why sell Iron Pyrites - when you can sell the real thing.

It amazes me that the credit card companies have not come out with a
platinum wristband.

Mao, 

I have written to Chopard and am awaiting their answer.

In the meanwhile, let me just refer you to one of many replica watches
(or fake watches, you make the choice) that sells a watch not
dissimilar to the one sold on eBay:
Watch Clone
<http://www.watch-clone.com/chopard_watches/Chopard_Happy_Fish_Quartz_chopard_16.html>

I am still to find a white one, but now I have also noticed some fine
details and differences between Chopard and the replicas (though it
might just be the picture). The tuner (that small dial with which you
tune the watch) is larger in the original version, for example.

Hello Polly,

Great to have you give me more support on this.  I'm really more
interested in looking for used very good condition items rather than
fakes ones that look too good to be true let alone the knowing that
you've got a fake in comparison to a 'ok' original. :-)

I might be getting ready to post another question to cover that, but
for now I would like to narrow the scope of the question to knowing
more about these Chopards and how to differentiate the good ones from
the bad ones. :-)

-Mao

Mao - Thank you for the rating and the tip! 

PS - I hope you'll find the bunny, sorry I couldn't have been helpful there.