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Subject:
Cosmology
Category: Science > Astronomy Asked by: starscaper-ga List Price: $2.00 |
Posted:
07 Jun 2005 20:55 PDT
Expires: 07 Jul 2005 20:55 PDT Question ID: 530665 |
My question has to do with confusion over two different models of the universe. In one model, the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. We can tell because the farther a galaxy is away from us, the more red shifted it is. The second model used to be favored until recently. The universe explodes in a big bang, galaxies fly away from each other, but gravity pulls them back together over time until the expansion stops and the universe ends ultimately in a "big crunch". This could ALSO be interpreted by observation because the farther we look into the universe, the farther back in time we are looking. Therefore, the younger the universe was the faster galaxies were moving away from each other. The question is, what model is correct, and how do we know for sure? If we measured the change in red shift over time in a given galaxy this would confirm that the expansion is accelerating - not slowing down. Is it possible to measure the change in red shift over time in a given galaxy or is it too small? |
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Subject:
Re: Cosmology
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 11 Jun 2005 15:07 PDT |
Those are not two different models. The standard 'Big-Bang' model, based on General Relativity, and observed red shifts of galaxies, allows three theoretical cases, hyperbolic, elliptic and parabolic. As iang-ga explains in his comment. These have different 'average energy density' and one of them leads to 'Big Crunch', others do not. Which case is realized, we are not sure. General description is here: http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bb_home.html Specific details are here: In most cases relativistic geometry M4 can be reduced to ordinary Euclidean geometry and time (M4 --> E3+ E1) . If we do that with current mainstream SEARCH TERM : Big Bang model, we get the model you mention: Mostly empty, infinite space E3, in which matter is flying apart, more and more slowly. It may stop and start falling back (elliptic case), keep slowing down to zero, (parabolic case) or, if it has enough kinetic energy to overcome the gravity (hyperbolic case) it may keep expanding. We do not even know which case we have - as sky surveys come too close to parabolic - to zero energy case - to decide. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=460093 In particular, this: " Therefore, the younger the universe was the faster galaxies were moving away from each other" is not part of accepted models. Original, simple model was that expansion is slowing down, about the same way (or rather similar way) as if you shoot a satellite into space. It will be slowing down, and depending on initial mass/energy, it may return (elliptic case) or keep flying away (hyperbolic case). With "inflation" and 'dark matter' hypotheses it became more complex. |
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Subject:
Re: Cosmology
From: spynavy-ga on 08 Jun 2005 04:25 PDT |
You stated; "We can tell because the farther a galaxy is away from us, the more red shifted it is" I always thought redshift determined the speed it was travelling away from the measurement source, not the distance. Anyway, as far as proving which one is valid, it seems like a question that would be difficult to answer without a time machine, or a teleporter to catch the light from the 5 billion year old explosion still moving through space. The hubble has been rumored to have the ability to see 16 billion light years distant. Maybe it's possible to tweak the settings on a telescope like that and catch the birth of our universe. Just a random thought. |
Subject:
Re: Cosmology
From: waukon-ga on 08 Jun 2005 05:05 PDT |
All I know on the subject I learned from Scientific American, http://www.sciam.com/ They have a search feature. Search arguments should include 'cosmology', 'strings' and 'multi-verse'. The observations now indicate the universe not closed (i.e., it will expanded forever until it becomes a cold collection of burned-out cinders). The hot topic is string theory, which requires up to six additional dimensions, and the notion of a 'multi-verse', that our universe (or, sub-universe, actually) is one of what amounts to an infinity of other sub-universes, where the physical laws can and probably are different from those in our own. |
Subject:
Re: Cosmology
From: iang-ga on 08 Jun 2005 05:13 PDT |
The critical thing to know is the density of the universe or how much mass/energy there is - this is known as Omega. If you start with the big bang there are 3 possible futures - In the first, gravity wins, the expansion of the universe is reversed and everything comes back together - the Big Crunch. Omega is greater than 1 In the second, the big bang wins. There's not enough mass/energy in the universe, and hence not enough gravity to overcome the expansion and the universe expands for ever. Omega is less than 1 In the third it's a draw! The expansion comes to a halt, but it takes infinite time. Omega = 1 So all we need to do is measure Omega :-) Tied to the big bang is another theory (it's a model realy, but let's not get too hung up on the detail) called Inflation, and this predicts that Omega should be 1. It still needs some experimental verification though, and you can do this by looking at the shape of the universe. A full explanation means getting into non-Euclidian geometry, but the bottom line is that you can look at Cosmic Microwave Background experiments like COBE and Boomerang and show that the universe has the right shape for Omega to be 1. If I'd written this 7 years ago I'd have stopped there, but in 1998 Saul Perlmutter measured the red-shifts of very distant supernovae and showed that the expansion of the universe is accelerating. What's causing this acceleration isn't known, but it's been called dark energy and understanding it is one of the big questions facing cosmology. How this affects the fate of the universe is open to question too, though some theories have the rate of acceleration increasing to the point that the universe is torn apart in a "Big Rip". You asked "...how do we know for sure". We don't! That's what makes it so much fun! Ian G. |
Subject:
Re: Cosmology
From: richard-ga on 08 Jun 2005 05:27 PDT |
A tip of the hat for Ian G.'s excellent comment. |
Subject:
Re: Cosmology
From: myoarin-ga on 08 Jun 2005 07:04 PDT |
That may all be true, but when we are looking millions and billions of light years out into space, we are looking at what was happening that long ago, and have no idea of what has happened in the meantime. The stars and galaxies in "deep space" that were accelerating away from us have all gone their way, disappeared into black holes, or whatever. Could it be that the universe is already contracting? Ian presents the (an) argument against this happening, which I cannot argue against, but we don't know, as he so cheerfully admits. :-) Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Cosmology
From: redshift-ga on 03 Jul 2005 00:59 PDT |
Of course, all this assumes that redshift is due expansion. Other models explain redshift as the photons losing energy as they travel along by bumping into electrons. This is supported by the fact that measured values of the Hubble constant (64 km/s per Mpc) are exactly equal to hr/m for the electron in each cubic metre of space. See http://www.lyndonashmore.com If this is the case then the universe is not expanding all! |
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