How can I find out the artist, how old this piece is, and what it is worth?

<http://homepage.mac.com/garyp/lady.html>

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Request for Question Clarification by politicalguru-ga on 15 Jun 2005 22:04 PDT

Dear  nunuverbizniz, 

I could answer your question as it is worded: ***How*** you can find
out the artists, the age of the painting and its possible market
price; however, I cannot tell you that myself without having a closer
look at it (that is of course impossible online: small details,
general quality, etc.). Would you still like me to answer the
question?

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Clarification of Question by nunuverbizniz-ga on 15 Jun 2005 22:41 PDT

Yes, the real question is who is the artist, when was it made, and
what is its market value?  The quality is first rate, & state of
preservation excellent.

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Clarification of Question by nunuverbizniz-ga on 26 Jun 2005 11:58 PDT

Actually, "How" would be sufficient.  I haven't been able to find
anything online, and I really don't know how to categorize my search. 
For example, a search on "Porcelain Painting" turns up only
information on ceramic objects, not flat pieces like this.  What I
really want to know is how and where to find out who made this art
piece, its age and value.

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Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 26 Jun 2005 15:39 PDT

Hello nunuverbizniz-ga,

I've found some information about this type of porcelain paintings. To
be able to take it further I need to know if there are any signatures,
stamps or other markings that would give some idea of its origins. The
web page you provided said, "The present owner says the artist has
stamped 2 symbols on the side of the frame. Hopefully we can get these
documented & posted soon." Do you have this information? What does it
say? It would be great if you could post some photos of these.

Can you tell me anything more on when or where your friend's family
first acquired the portrait. Your link said, "Over a hundred years
old. Her true origin is unknown, but she may have traveled the
Atlantic Ocean on the Queen Elizabeth. My friend's family has
estimated her value at between $20K - $60K." What is your basis for
the estimation of age and value? What is the story about the Queen
Elizabeth?

I think I have some leads and any additional information would be
extremely helpful. Thanks.

~ czh ~

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Clarification of Question by nunuverbizniz-ga on 26 Jun 2005 16:47 PDT

Thank you czh - I will get that information online as soon as I can. 
Probably not before June 28 or 29th.  The owner is a little hard to
get hold of.

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Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 26 Jun 2005 17:17 PDT

Hello again nunuverbizniz-ga,

I?ve continued my searching. Staring at your photos I?m getting more
confused. It?s difficult to make out the true texture of your
painting. In the title you?ve called it a ?porcelain painting? but in
your description you say it is ?a porcelain enamel portrait? and the
issue gets confused. The photo almost looks like the figure of the
woman is of a different material or texture than the golden background
with leaves. Yet she has the golden leaves in her hands.

The figure of the woman is very much in the style of porcelain
paintings done by KPM Berlin except that all of their portraits are
considerably smaller than 2? x 3?. If this is truly an authentic
antique porcelain painting it would be very valuable just because of
its size. Another reason I?m questioning that this is a KPM portrait
is because of the golden background. I haven?t found any other works
with this type of combination of colors and textures.

I also researched enamel portraits and found that these tend to be
miniatures. The reason is that enamel cracks very easily so it?s hard
to make and keep safe a large enamel painting. Also, as I keep looking
at your picture, the texture doesn?t ?seem? like enamel.

I feel stumped without further input from you. Here are some links to
show you how I?ve arrived at my questions. I look forward to your
clarifications.

~ czh ~

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/roadshow/tips/porcelain.html
Porcelain Paintings ? Durable Art

http://pages.kovels.com/55/InventoryPage/1564/1.html
KPM Price Guide

http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/ah_antique_porcelain_china/article/0,1801,HGTV_3091_1397328,00.html
Painting on Porcelain

http://www.the-maac.com/gallery_enlarge_view.php?id=303
http://www.the-maac.com/gallery_enlarge_view.php?id=442
http://www.the-maac.com/gallery_enlarge_view.php?id=447

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_enamel
Vitreous enamel

In a discussion of art or technology, enamel (or vitreous enamel, or
porcelain enamel in American English) is the colorful result of fusion
of powdered glass to a substrate through the process of firing,
usually between 750 and 850 degrees Celsius. The powder melts and
flows to harden as a smooth, durable vitreous coating on metal, glass
or ceramic. It is often applied in a paste form and may be transparent
or opaque when fired. Vitreous enamel can be applied to most metals.

Also, an "enamel" is a decorative object, usually very small, having
an enamel coating, such as a piece of champlevé or cloisonné.

Vitreous enamel has many excellent properties: it is smooth, hard,
chemically resistant, durable, can take on long-lasting, brilliant
colors, and cannot burn. Disadvantages are its tendency to crack or
shatter when the substrate is stressed or bent.

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Clarification of Question by nunuverbizniz-ga on 26 Jun 2005 18:23 PDT

OK czh - I see your work is being hampered by my inability to describe
exactly what the object is.  I am a fine artist, trained in close
observation of methods & materials, so I ought to be able to do a
better job of describing the painting, but the problem is I have never
seen anything like it before, & ceramics is not my area of expertise. 
I can say for sure that the piece is on a ceramic substrate.  The
weight alone guarantees this.  The painting appears to my trained eyes
to be fired on to the surface.  It doesn't look like a glaze decal,
because there is no dithering.  My guess was that it is actually a
large porcelain enamel painting, but maybe there is something else
that looks like this, I don't know.  The golden leaves and background
are overpainted after the firing, in other words, they are not fired
material.  Within this overpainting, there are what seem to be glass
beads embedded in the paint, giving a textural quality.  The figure is
smooth ceramic while the gold background is textured from the
overpainting.

I will supply details about other markings and more photos, as well as
every bit of the story I can get from the owner as soon as possible.

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Clarification of Question by nunuverbizniz-ga on 26 Jun 2005 18:36 PDT

One of your links,<http://www.the-maac.com/gallery_enlarge_view.php?id=303>,
leads me to believe that we may be looking at a large example of the
same factory's output, possibly by the same hand.  I will get the rest
of the info a.s.a.p.

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Clarification of Question by nunuverbizniz-ga on 26 Jun 2005 20:56 PDT

I have added another photo to the web page - a closeup view.

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Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 26 Jun 2005 21:53 PDT

Thanks for the new picture. The glass grains are definitely visible.
The gold leaves seem to be embossed instead of painted. I've done some
more research and I wonder if maybe this is a Russian piece.

http://www.sirin.co.uk/docs/enamels2.htm
Rostove Enamels

http://www.russianenamel.com/history.shtml
HISTORY AND TECHNIQUES OF ENAMELS

I hope that the additional information about signatures or marks will
help. If not, another alternative to help you identify and evaluate
this piece would be to find out which auction housem, museum or art
gallery might have an expert in porcelain painting who could help you.

This is a very interesting -- and frustrating -- search.

I look forward to hearing from you.

~ czh ~

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Clarification of Question by nunuverbizniz-ga on 01 Jul 2005 18:17 PDT

I have a bit of new information:

The marks on the side of the frame read as follows-  There are 4
possible interpretations, according to the owner:

B C

BUC

8 C

B&C

I have asked the owner to clarify whether these are carved or stamped.

In addition, I am still trying to get the owner to send a summary of
the history & recollections around this object.  I will post this as
soon as I get it.

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Request for Question Clarification by czh-ga on 01 Jul 2005 21:30 PDT

nunuverbizniz-ga,

Thanks for the update. I await further developments.

~ czh ~

Dear nunuverbizniz,
I am an antique dealer who specializes in antique European porcelain.
I would like to help answer your question but I will need further
information and photos. I would like to see a picture of the back of
the painting, any stamps, symbols or makers marks including initials,
letters and numbers. Also please send me a closeup photo of the frame
if you can.

I may be able to help you.

Dear deanka7,

I am handling this communication for the owner who is computer
illiterate and has the piece in storage 100 miles distant from me.  I
will need to set up another photo session to answer your question.  I
will certainly do this as soon as possible.  It may take a bit of time
because it's a quirky situation.  I will report here as soon as I can
get more info.

Thank you!

An update...  The owner is delivering the porcelain painting to me for
further photographic documentation.  I pick it up Monday evening
August 8th.  I will get the photos posted as soon as possible during
this week.  Thanks to those who are attempting to help.  I think
things will get easier now that I have total access.  I will be as
thorough as possible in my photo documentation.

At last I was able to get a closer look and take more photos.  I was
also able to get the shop mark onto my scanner & get a very clear scan
of it.  The website has been updated with 5 new pictures including the
back of the piece and the close-up of the identifying marks.  The
piece is now accessible if more information is needed.

<http://homepage.mac.com/garyp/lady.html>

Hello nunuverbizniz-ga,

Since this question has expired, I suggest that you post a new
question with all the new information as well as a reference to this
question.

I did some preliminary searching using the added information and I
think someone may be able figure out the mystery of your painting. I
look forward to your new question.

~ czh ~