How do you say "Holy cr-p" in Dutch or, preferably, Flemish of about 125 years ago?

Thank you,
Archae0pteryx
(not planning to say it myself, thanks, but I have a character
standing there with his mouth open, and that's what he wants to say)

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Request for Question Clarification by scriptor-ga on 09 Jul 2005 19:18 PDT

Hello Tryx! Would the old, but timeless "Godverdomme!" meet your needs?

Greetings,
Scriptor

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Clarification of Question by archae0pteryx-ga on 09 Jul 2005 20:15 PDT

Hi, Scriptor--fancy seeing you here!  Thank you for looking at my question.

Sorry, nope.  Unless I'm much mistaken, that's too mild and
nonspecific.  I want astonished awe in the mouth of a blue-collar
laborer.  And I want the English reader to have a pretty good idea of
what it says without a translation.

Tryx

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Request for Question Clarification by scriptor-ga on 10 Jul 2005 05:23 PDT

Hmmm ... "Schijt!" needs absolutely no translation, I think. And is
used like the English "Shit!". But maybe that is also too mild. I'll
see if I can find something stronger...

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Clarification of Question by archae0pteryx-ga on 10 Jul 2005 10:53 PDT

Well. Scriptor, maybe our uses are way different.  If someone just
exclaimed "s--t!" very loudly--or "G--dammit!" I would expect that
something had suddenly gone wrong.  Maybe something big, but some
people make these exclamations as readily over dropping a nail as over
pounding their thumb.  They don't generally say them to express
amazement, astonishment, wonder, awe.  My character has just
discovered something remarkable--an object has come to light.  What
does he say when it's revealed?  I think he says "heilige schijt" or
something close (how about heilige krappe"? in 1887 Flemish.

I hope GA doesn't thnk we're being too crude and kill my Q.  This is
legitimate linguistic research.

Tryx

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Request for Question Clarification by nenna-ga on 15 Jul 2005 07:58 PDT

Good mornign archae0pteryx-ga!

According to a close friend of mine, who was born and raised in
Holland, "heilig schijt" translated would be "holy s--t".  "Heilig
kak" translates to "holy crap", which would be close, however, "kak"
is loose slang for "crap".

Additionally, he states that such an outburst, in Dutch, would be met
with a furrowed brow because it's not common.  He cant say for sure
that the term would be used to exclaim surprise or amazement that
"holy crap" illicits, but it is the closest translation available.

If this is acceptable as an answer, please let me know and I will post it as such.

Nenna-GA
Google Researcher

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Clarification of Question by archae0pteryx-ga on 16 Jul 2005 11:22 PDT

Hi, Nenna, and thank you for your interest in my question.  I've
delayed responding out of uncertainty and thought perhaps my Flemish
commenter might help.

I like both "heilig schijt" and (better) "heilig kak" for my purposes,
as long as they possess the needed authenticity.

My uncertainty has three aspects:  (1) Would the expression work as
Flemish?  (2) Would it have been said in 1887?  (3) Does it express
amazement?  Since you didn't include that information, I'm not sure of
your response as my answer.

I've made use of the very attractive "schijt" now, thanks to Scriptor
(attractive because it is so recognizable without translation and can
be said so feelingly), and am disappointed to learn that it may not
express frustration.  I don't know where to go to find good answers.

Here's the situation, as I explained to Myoarin earlier:

   My character is one of three workmen who have uncovered something. 
They're all of the same class, and there are no ladies present.  The
crew leader utters the exclamation, aloud and not under his breath,
but they're not in the street.  No one else is close by.  What's the
strongest exclamation of wonder and amazement he might make,
preferably with recognizable English cognates?

Time is 1887, place is Flanders, and the crewmen are Dutch-speaking Flemings.

The scene goes on, and one of the other characters remarks that he
thinks it might be a treasure.  But when they open the box, it is
nothing of apparent value.  "Schijt," he says.

Now Mechelen1 says I can't use that expression with that meaning, either.

Can you help?  This is getting to be some work, and I see that I am
going to have to raise the price, even though it seems that I've
chosen a story setting in which I can't get through a single paragraph
without research questions.  (Sigh)

Thank you,
Arache0pteryx

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Request for Question Clarification by scriptor-ga on 16 Jul 2005 11:43 PDT

Hello Tryx!

I'm so sorry for not responding ... possibly due to some technical
problem, I had not received any notifications relating to this
question so I thought nothing was happening here.
I tried to solve your question by using a detour via Low German (a
language still alive where I live). Since Low German and Flemish are,
linguistically, very close relatives, I was quite sure that I would
find some inspiration. The Low German counterpart of the Flemish
Schijt - "Schiet" - can express almost anything: From surprise over
frustration to simple cursing (depending on the circumstances). I am
quite sure that this wide spectrum of meanings would also apply to the
Dutch/Flemish version. It used to be a rather strong expression (but
not anymore today), but it avoided blasphemy. However, I am not
completely sure whether this is enough to base an answer upon.

All the best,
Scriptor

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Clarification of Question by archae0pteryx-ga on 16 Jul 2005 12:30 PDT

Darn, I hate it when I spell my name wrong, even if it's not my real
name and I haven't been writing it since I was four.

Archae0pteryx

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Clarification of Question by archae0pteryx-ga on 16 Jul 2005 13:54 PDT

Nice to hear back from you, Scriptor.  Now I don't know what to do.  I
have your suggestions and Nenna's and Mechelen1's, and they don't
agree, and I have two prospective answerers.  I am grateful for all
the willing helpers!  But I'm not sure how best to proceed and would
welcome some advice.

I really thought this one would be easy and quick--a snap of the
fingers, done.  Seems like I'm always wrong about that.

Tryx

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Request for Question Clarification by scriptor-ga on 16 Jul 2005 14:01 PDT

Dear Tryx, I hesitate to give advice. The reason why: I, too, don't
know anymore what's correct and what is not. I had no idea that this
simple little question would prove to be so complex. Indeed, your
questions are both challenging and surprising ;-)

I wish I could provide a definitive answer - but I am too confused
(and that does not happen very often)...

All the best,
Scriptor

Same place, different century ...

"Godverdomme" is said to be the strongest Dutch explitive  - on this
site, by someone who doesn't sound like he is especially god-fearing.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=973706
(just as a reference.  It isn't much help otherwise, and not for Sunday morning)

"Godverdamme" is supposed to be milder version, that a English speaker
should understand better.

The site confirms  the sh-t is "sh-t" in Dutch.  But is there a
stronger use of it, and would someone have used it back then  - on the
street, under his breath, ...?
Myoarin

Hi, Myoarin--

I found sites that said the same thing.  I looked at one Dutch slang
site where I had to read a lot of nasty Dutch words looking for the
right English meaning, but I couldn't find anything even close to what
I wanted.

My character is one of three workmen who have uncovered something. 
They're all of the same class, and there are no ladies present.  The
crew leader utters the exclamation, aloud and not under his breath,
but they're not in the street.  No one else is close by.  What's the
strongest exclamation of wonder and amazement he might make,
preferably with recognizable English cognates?

Thank you,
Tryx

Hi Tryx,
Thanks for both explanations.  Hmmm?  I might say:  "Well I'll be an SOB!",
but we know that in Dutch that wouldn't be intelligable for an English
reader  - and we don't know if 19th c. blue collars talked like that 
- but you've got the advantage of authorial license.

Would he have said:  "Oh, my God!"  

Scriptor should be able to help if that is appropriate.  In Norwegian
that might be:  "Du Herre Gud!"  just as a suggestion that maybe also
in Dutch this explitive would be the equivalent to the German:  "Du
lieber Gott!"

Cheers, Myoarin

Tryx,
after some more searching,  Maybe:

"Jij Herr God!"    or   "Je Herr God!"

What does Scriptior-ga say??  If acceptable, would Herr and God be capitalized?

Regards, Myoarin

I'm Flemish and quite amused. :) Jij Herr God!"    or   "Je Herr God!"
isn't Flemish, nor Dutch, don't know where you got that. "Schijt",
although meaning the sh$$ word isn't used to express frustration, at
least not where I'm living.
The word that's being used most in Flemish TV-series handling that
period is "dedju". The best and and strongest translation "dedju,
dedju, (god)verdomme!"

Hi, mechelen1--I am very happy to hear from you, especially since it
looks as though Scriptor weren't coming back.

Please see my original question and clarifications for the type of
expression I am looking for.  I was not asking for an exclamation of
frustration at all.  (Do I understand correctly that "dedju, dedju,
(god)verdomme!" is for frustration, and if so, what does "dedju"
actually mean?)  I'm hoping that as a native speaker of Flemish you
can help me achieve authenticity.

Thank you,
Archae0pteryx

Hi, myoarin, and thank you for your earnest efforts.  I didn't think
this one could be done by straight research; I thought it would take a
native answering off the top of his head what he knows without asking.
 That's why I priced it as a zero-time question.  Your searches often
do turn up interesting things, though, and I appreciate your frequent
help.

Tryx

HI Tryx,
Just try to help, maybe being trying at times ... ;)

I hope Mechelen1-ga comes back with what you need  (recalling that you
want the Dutch/Flemish expression to be recognizable to English
readers).

Myoarin