How many people has organized religion killed?

I know it's impossible to give an exact number, but I am looking for
statistics from the main religious massacres, which occured in Gods
name. It is important to list the event, and religious group
affiliated with the killings.
 
Statistics must be given for Christians, Catholics, and Muslims.  Others, which
are important are the Aztecs and ancient Chinese beliefs. Good luck!

---

Clarification of Question by wannabeleader-ga on 24 Jul 2005 15:18 PDT

Answers, which say religion has not killed anyone, but people have
killed people will not be tolerated.

---

Request for Question Clarification by angy-ga on 30 Jul 2005 04:13 PDT

How do you define "massacres."?  Do you include religious individual
executions over a number of years of presecution, or are you after
mass killing.

---

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 30 Jul 2005 08:34 PDT

I answered a question similar to yours a while back:


http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=501208


and the answer seems to be 809 million.  

I'm afraid you'll have to do the arithmetic yourself to divvy up the
deaths by religion.


Does this get at what you need?

pafalafa-ga

---

Clarification of Question by wannabeleader-ga on 01 Aug 2005 10:53 PDT

looks good.

This may be of interest to you:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=501208

Hi!

Don't get me wrong this post is not in anyway made to exonerate the
guilt in murders because of religious ideals. However, to balance our
views, we must also take a look at the atrocities by those who do not
believe in a God. One example will be figures killed in the name of
Communism.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIF

easterangel-ga,

I do agree we should take into consideration the atrocities of those
who do not believe in God; however, I would never support Communism.
If organized religion has created the same atrocities of Communism, I
wouldn't join their rank either.

The question I am proposing, is: Has religion created the same evil as
Communism, and to what level?

To be fair in evaluating this matter, I think the number of lives
saved by charitable actions of religous entities should be considered
as a counterbalance. Of course, like the number of deaths, this is not
going to be a "hard" statistic. Estimates of such things tend to vary
dramatically, depending upon who is doing the estimating.

Please forgive my misspelling of the word 'religious' in my post
above. Sometimes when I type, my fingers fly fast, but my mind lags
behind. ;-)

In the early history of the religious [ Christian] organisation now
recognised as Jehovahs Witnesses, baptised members did participate as
non combatants, such as stretcher bearers. But a decision was made by
the governing body that even this could be construed as agreeing with
the pertinent government in the act of war, so from that moment no
baptised member would have anything to do with any aspect of war or
retribution. All members must obey the government authorities in the
matters of civil law, but not when such laws or requirements go
against what God states in the Bible. In this instance, " Thou shalt
not kill", or as at John 18;31 " It is not lawful for us to kill
anyone". A Bible principal.

pinkfreud-ga, pugwashjw-ga, 

Both of you bring up great points; however, the greatest evil
organized religion lacks is not supporting freedom of thought. In the
later posts, we have shown organized religion promoting death or life.
The question now becomes, who decides when it promotes injustice or
vitality and why is religion so unstable?

What scares me is the political instability of organized religion.
During September 11th, the Crusades, and ancient witch hunts,
organized religion has murdered in Gods name, to expand their belief
and crush the opposition.

The Bible is not evil, but the man hidden behind the organization,
promoting one standard, one faith is evil.

In present, religious instability is seen with American Evangelicals.
Instead of promoting vitality, they have worked to re-elect President
Bush and denounce homosexuality. Wouldn?t their time be well spent
solving world hunger and poverty?

Dear Wannabe

There is also a demographic problem here. Let's take Easterangel's
claim regarding the crimes of Stalin, or similarly, crimes of other
brutal dictatorships - Nazism, Maoism and so on. These crimes have
happened in the 20th century, and that's why we have almost-accurate
demographic knowledge of how many people have died (and still - the
Nazis tried hard to aliminate their tracks, and so did the Soviets).

However, it is much more difficult to estimate how many people died in
the 30-Years-War (1618-1646), which was also based on religious
tensions (between Catholics and Protestants), let alone during the
Crusades or early Muslim conquests in Northern Africa and the Middle
East. It is impossible to know for sure how many have died during
Biblical wars, e.g. the war against the Jewish rebellion in Judea and
the conequent Exile in the First Century (C.E.).

Even if you estimate, for example, that a million people died in the
Crusades, and that 20 millions have died at the hands of Stalin (just
examples), we have to remember that there is no comparison in the size
of the world-population at the time, and that a million in the Middle
Ages could be just as bad as 20 million today. And would you count
victims of famine/diseases that have broken out because of wars with
the victims of war? It is logical to do so, but complicates the
picture furthermore.

Again wannabeleader-ga my post does not distinguish between the evil
on both camps. Only to show that no hands are clean on this thing.
Why? Because whether we like it or not all men and women sinful
nature. And this nature is what drives the evil around us whatever
religion, political affiliation or sectoral camp we belong to.

wannabeleader, well you have shown me reason to vote against you, and
as with most Americans who push their views, to have you as leader
would be as scary as Bush. First I would like to ask you what is the
point behind your question. You should concider that you are
justifying your way of life through this means. "We cannot raise
ourselves up by the judging of others." Yes there have been countless
deaths in the name of God, which is what we are really talking about
here right. But here you tie organized religion to Communism and the
two to war. So, I agree the two have been responsible for many deaths,
no question about it. Although, you seem to not see that freedom has
also taken more then it's fair share of lives, and in the name of God,
or are you going to tell me I have never heard this; "God loves
America and Americans, God hates Commies." If you are interested in
calculating useful figuars on deaths caused by misguided causes you
might want to post this question; "How many lives have been lost to
the perpetuation of one idea of freedom, in Iraq, in the past six
months?" This might at least show a point to a Question on the number
of deaths in that it would be about what we can do something about,
this is still going on today.

Please forgive me for this approach, do not take it personal, I am
only useing what you have put before me, I do not assume to know you.
But I will guote you to show how misguided all this is and how utterly
misguided the American government is. If you can't relate this
statement to yourself and your religion and your government first,
then you have no right to say it. "The bible is not evil, but the man
hidden behind the orginization, promoting one standard, one faith is
evil." These are your words, I apologize it I am wrongh in assuming
you are American, but for me, this statement applies in our world
today,(the one I live in)most to America.

airspace-ga,

"wannabeleader, well you have shown me reason to vote against you...to
have you as a leader would be as scary as Bush..."

Is this an attempt at humor? I encourage you to re-read my posts. I am
simply trying to gain some answers, not run for President.

Now, you bring up a great point, except I've answered the question. I
do not have to support the wars being fought in freedoms name; this is
the glorious nature of freedom. If organized religion has created the
same atrocities as the Iraq War, I wouldn't join their rank either.

The question again turns to: has religion created the same evil as the
Iraq War, and to what level?

Politicalguru,

A rough generalization, supported with reliable sources from the
internet would be acceptable. It would be impossible to come up with
an exact number.

wannabeleader - Can you define "religion" please?  Not examples, ie
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc., but a real definition?  Thanks!

I do not understand why this question has significance. My original
question was how many people have been killed by organized religion.
Organized religion would be South Baptists, Catholics, and all the
other dominations, which present themselves into a clear set body.

My question is significant because your question is poorly worded.  I
guess that's why you provided a poor definition for religion.

ilmag

ilmag,

To answer my question, it is only relevant to understand the meaning
of organized religion, and I have given examples.

Hi Wannabeleader. You made a point about comparing homosexuality with
hunger, and our seeming inability to properly feed people. Could I
give you the Bibles viewpoint on the two. And I wait in anticipation
for the comments on such.
The Bible absolutely condemns homosexuality. Sodom and Gomorrah [ and
other cities in the area] were destroyed by God because of it.
1Corinthians 6;9 and 1Timothy 1;10. Both specify ' men who lie with
men. It also applies to women but is even stricter. Levitivus 18;23 '
And you must not give your emission to any beast as to become unclean
by it. And a woman should not stand before a beast to have connection
with it. It is a violation of what is natural".
As to poverty and hunger, Jesus set the example. When he had the
expensive 'NARD' or oil used on him, by Mary [not Jesus' mother] [Mark
14;3 and John 12;3, it was criticised by Judas [who betrayed Jesus] as
being wasteful in that it should have been sold and the funds given to
the poor. Jesus' answer is in verse 7 " for you have the poor always
with you, but me you will not always have". There is a principle here.
Almighty God [ not Jesus] has promised that this 'system of things' is
to be done away with and a new arrangement for decent people will be
put in place [Psalm 37]. So there is a vast difference between
homosexuality and poverty.

wannabeleader-ga your question is significant because it has some bias
towards religions and again nobody has clean hands on this one and
some of us are trying to tip the balnce here in whatever which way.

There are thousands of users in this forum wannabeleader-ga and you
have touched a very sensitive cord. This is the reason why your
question is very important.

:)

pugwashjw-ga,

"The Bible absolutely condemns homosexuality."

I am not paying $5 to listen about the Bible's belief on
homosexuality. My question is specific, how many people has organized
religion killed? It has nothing to do with homosexuality.



"So there is a vast difference between homosexuality and poverty."

I totally agree. I have never said homosexuality is poverty. What I
said was, American Evangelicals are busy denouncing homosexuality and
re-electing President Bush, instead of fighting world poverty and
hunger.

My comments do not defend homosexuality; however, if American
Evangelicals are seeking to better the world, I would strongly support
fighting poverty, and starvation before an amendment.

Organized religion (as you pitifully define) gives tremendously to aid
hunger and poverty, financially and in human resources.  What's your
point?  Is it that organized religion should only have the goal of
ending hunger and poverty?

ilmag

Ilmag,

"...Pitifully define[d]..."

Am I sensing animosity? Or just denial of the implications of
organized religion? I have already gave examples. Now, I am looking
for an answer to my question based on my definition.

"What's your point?  Is it that organized religion should only have the goal of
ending hunger and poverty?"

Sure, religious organizations help aid world hunger and poverty, but
what about doing more for woman's and children's rights, racism, the
crisis in Chechnya or East Timor? Or the conflicts in Africa and
India? Instead of doing more to better the world, religious groups
have put resources in re-electing Bush and denouncing homosexuality
and that, my dear friend, is "pitiful."

I want to add, not all organizations are bent on denouncing
homosexuality and re-electing Bush. These organizations have chosen to
spend their resources wisely, and should be recognized.

wannabeleader

wannabeleader - I wish there was more that "organized religion" could
do to address the issues you have brought out, but I would point out
that there are numerous of religious-based organizations that
separately and specifically aid women, children, minorities, foreign
countries in crisis, etc.  What more should be done?  What is your
plan?  Or do you just feel the need to criticize "organized religion"
without really knowing the Truth?  How many buildings devastated by
war have you helped rebuild?  How many hungry children have you fed in
Africa or India?  How many times have you held someone's hand and
prayed with them while they are dying from an incurable ailment?

I would dare say that what you think "organized religion" should be
doing cannot be done.  There will always be war.  There will always be
hunger.  There will always be injustice.  "Organized religion" or
government or any human-created entity you can think of cannot stop
those facts of life from occurring.  There only One who can bring
peace, prosperity, and justice - and whether you believe it or not, He
will do it soon enough [see Revelation 21:3, 4].

God bless you!

ilmag

"I wish there was more that "organized religion" could do to address
the issues you have brought out."

If organized religion used their resources, which were used to
re-elect President Bush for a better cause; then, yes, there is more
organized religion could do.

Did I say organized religious groups haven't helped? Where could these
groups resources be going instead of re-electing President Bush and
denouncing homosexuality? Lets answer the question, not hide under a
false sense of religious reality.

"...without...knowing the Truth?.."

I'm trying to find the truth. That was the purpose of my $5 and this
question. It is important to know the negative aspects of things
before I am involved. Clearly, you have shown the negative aspect of
religions irrationality, but I didn't understand it was this horrible.

"how many hungry children have you fed in Africa or India?  

At age 19, I created a non-profit organization dedicated to minorities
in Northern America (including America, Canada and Mexico), but my
achievements will not help to answer: How many people have been killed
by organized religion?

"There will always be war.  There will always be hunger.  There will
always be injustice."

Did I say war, hunger and injustice will go bye-bye?

I for one, would like to say that when I realized I was homosexual and
thought about how it would effect my life, I realized I no longer was
accepted by my parish and faith.  My parents were born and raised
Catholic, and so they persuasively forced their views on me, causing
me to continue their religious legacy.  As I grew and learned more
about how my own church and faith did not accept me, I felt I no
longer had a place to turn to spiritally, and made me question if
somehow I am worse of a person.  Now others I am sure, who are also
gay, most likely experience the same thing.  What can result though is
a feeling of depression and rejection, forcing some to suicidal
limits, or it can also cause anger from homosexuals at those religious
institutions who denounce homosexuality and them, to the point where
people's lives may be in danger.  The emotional hardships and
unacceptance in society for those who are gay, which religious
institutions only help to further the discrimination, can cause many
homosexuals to contimplate suicide and to even go ahead and kill
themselves.  I don't have a number for how many have died, but i have
a hard time sleeping feeling I don't belong because some Bible condems
those who are born a certain way.

wannabeleader, yes this was humor, or at least an attempt. Actually I
am surprized my name has not been used used for jokes more often, I
could use a good laugh. Oh and I did re-read your posting after I
posted mine so I already see where you stand and believe I stand with
you on most points. Sorry if I offended you, was not intended.

mrstock2005, how very fine of you to post such statement. I for one
know I am not homosexual, and have experience to back it up. But I
have very good friends who are. One of my friends tought me what tough
really is. We MEN think being tough is how many shoots in the head you
can take(figuaratively speeking). Well my friend can stand up in the
middle of a crowed room and say, "yea I'm gay so what of it?" Well to
do this is way tougher then a few shoots in the head. The hardist
thing in life is to face yourself, bravo and good luck.

Take care of you,
airspace

wannabeleader - You call my point of view irrational, yet you have
asked a question that can't be answered.  Further, you have stipulated
that the only correct answer to your question will not be tolerated
(see clarification).  So what are you trying to prove?  Is it that you
want to prove their is evil in society?  Is it to prove that some
religious people are so zealous that they take human life?

One more question for you - is it ever appropriate to take a human life?  

Good luck with your search.  I pray that you find the Truth.

ilmag

ilmag,

You haven't answered a single one of my questions, and everytime you
post, it's always something new, but that's alright...I'm still here.

"you have asked a question that can't be answered."

I would believe all the time spent reading the Bible, it would be
possible to read where I say, "I know it's impossible to give an exact
number," and "A rough generalization, supported with reliable sources
from the internet would be acceptable."


wannabeleader - You call my point of view irrational, yet you have
asked a question that can't be answered.  Further, you have stipulated
that the only correct answer to your question will not be tolerated
(see clarification).  So what are you trying to prove?  Is it that you
want to prove their is evil in society?  Is it to prove that some
religious people are so zealous that they take human life?

One more question for you - is it ever appropriate to take a human life?  

Good luck with your search.  I pray that you find the Truth.

The other comments I entered, while still editing. I hit the button by mistake.

ilmag, 

You haven't answered a single one of my questions, and everytime you
post, it's always something new, but that's alright...I can roll with
your hyperbole:

"you have asked a question that can't be answered."

All the time spent reading the Bible, would it be possible to read
where I say, "I know it's impossible to give an exact number," and "A
rough generalization, supported with reliable sources from the
internet would be acceptable."

"the only correct answer to your question will not be tolerated"

Yes, if you are a religious fanatic, unwilling live up to the history. 

"Is it to prove that some religious people are so zealous that they
take human life?"

Well, you proved the zealous part, I didn't have to say a thing. 

"is it ever appropriate to take a human life?"

I'm sick of answering all your questions, when you leave mine unanswered.

I pray you find the truth.

"How many people has organized religion killed?"

Religion has not killed anyone, but people have killed people.

There's the answer to your question.

ilmag

ilmag,

The only question you have answered is how religious people are
blinded by their faith. It is sad, because this obscurity is what has
led to murder in the Albigensian Crusade, Witch Hunts, and Early
Christian doctrinal disputes.

Well wannabe, you are definitly swaying my vote for you to be leader,
the more you express yourself the more I am with you. Now having said
that, this means I can give you what would be my answer if that were
what you were looking for, tell me what you think please. To try to
give an accurate number of such a thing is as absurd as the fact that
the number would be even more absurd in it immensity, especially when
concidering what is being calculated. Man has been killing man in the
name of religious righteousness since the dawn of civilization, if not
sooner. as well, an accurate answer is next to impossible simpily
because this same thing still goes on today. So a true calculated
total would be out dated in a day. So for me, the essence of this
question is why has their been so many, and when will it stop? If
anyone actually has a logical reason for the lose of so many then, I
would question there morality very seriously. So I can't even begin to
understand the why so many. When will it stop? Again, who could answer
this, but maybe when we all want equally for each other what we want
for ourselves, things will start to change.

airspace,

You make a really good point. My steam to continue has subsided.

However, while walking around the University of Michigan campus,
(where I attend) I was stopped by a Jehovah Witness (the third
religions person to do such in a month). He said two things really
fast:

"Here, take these pamphlets about saving your life." On the cover of
the first pamphlet it read, "Do You Want to LIVE FOREVER?" and on the
second, "How to Make Real Friends."

and then he said in a passionate voice, "on page two is information on
donating money."

I guess he cut to the chase.

Oh, you probably mean The Watchtower, 15th Novembre 2004 ('Do you want
to live forever') and Awake, 8th Decembre 2004 ('How to make real
friends') ???

Please, I'm VEEEERY interested to know the facts about it. I have
these two magazines in front of myself at this very moment (on the
front page there's an old man who has leaned his chin on his walking
stick and on Awake three girls are sitting together on a meadow).
I have THOROUGHLY checked them and can't find ANYTHING like you've said.

What I DO find on page 2 is that it's a magazine printed on 148
languages (now 150) on about 50 000 000 (that's millions) copies every
fortnight (the world's most distributed religious magazines are hardly
 pamphlets, but whatewer..).
The page two also says:

"The purpose of Watchtower is to exalt Jehovah God as Souvereign Lord
of the universe. It keeps watch on world events as these fulfill Bible
prophecy. It comforts all people with good news that God's Kingdom
will soon destroy those who opress their fellowmen and that it will
turn the earth into paradise. It encourages faith in God's
now-reigning King, Jesus Christ, whose shed blood opens the way for
mankind to gain eternal life. The Watchtower, published by Jehowah's
Witnesses, continously sincce 1879, is nonpolitical. It adhers to the
Bible as its authority."

The articles in these two magazines are:
How long people can live, Do you want to live forever, There are so
many works of yours, Jehovah, Spread the Word of God having no fear,
Jehovah's vedict over evil-doers will be fulfilled, Seek for Jehovah,
the God who examines the hearts, The shed of the rightousness ones
will flourish, Readers ask, Do you long for a world without fear?.
The articles in Awake were: We all need friends, How to find friends,
Good friends-bad friends, Do you know?, Lossos, a king in need,
Collecting things - a hobby where one needs to show a ballanced
attitude, Readers ask, Everybody should read this book, A help in
soving family problems.

Please, have in mind that it's my quick translation from Croatian back
to English, so the word order may be wrong. But NOT the meaning nor
the contents.

I know you wouldn't like to be considered as a liar and slenderer. No
one would. So would you PLEEEEEASE quote at least a sentence or
two!?!?!?!?!?
I hope you won't try to say something like 'I threw them away without
looking' That would be so appropriate.

But anyway, I wouldn't like to put you into an embarrasing position.
We can all make false assumptions and jump into the conclusions.
We all do and I know I do too.

What I would really like is to make a comment to your original post.
Ilmag is right. There is no definite answer to your question. Simply
because there has been NO WAR where organized religions (of any
name)didn't have its fingers in it. (of course - except one)
Whenever and wherever ther was a war, all organnized religions were
ready to support their own nations against another regardless of the
faith of the opposing nation. And that goes for all the wars
throughout the history of humankind. So called Christians, but also
Budhists and Muslims were and are killing the members of their own
religion as soon as the Caesar (Fuhrer or Duce or President or
whoever) calls them to. Catholics in Italy against Catholics in
Croatia. Protestants in Germany against Protestants in England.
Mormons in USA against Mormons in Germany. Budhists in Japan against
Budhists all over Indonesia....(and that's only for the II WW!!!)
Sure, there were noble individuals who didnt follow their compatriots.
But they did that AGAINST THE OFFICIAL INSTRUCTIONS OF THEIR CHURCH
LEADERS!

That's why the Bible speaks about the false religions as "Babylon the
Great, the mother of the harlots...drunk with the blood..." However,
the greatest guilt lies on those who did/do these attrocities in the
name of the God of the Bible and Jesus.
But that is only natural; Jesus has said that all the world lies in
the power of the evil one. It's his world order.
So, there's no point in trying to better this world like some
denominations try engaging themselves in political, economical and
social reforms. That way they only become part of the world.  That
can't and won't be done by men's power!
Of course, one has to help his neighbour in need. The Bible says
"...let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those
related to us in the faith"(Gal 6:10). Jesus also gave us example when
feeding the hungry multitude. However, there's a great difference
between that and 'Lets CREATE THE WORLD ORDER with no hunger, wars,
homeless...." as you can sometime hear.
That will ONLY be done by the intervention of the Almighty God. The
true Christians should and they do take part in following Jesus'
example: He never took part in such political or similar reforms. His
primary goal, one that the true Christians are to follow are in John
18:37 "...for this I have been born and for this I have come into the
world, that I should bear witness to the truth."

So let me conclude this long post with some good news:
1)The only true God has had and still has His loyal followers. They as
a group are easyly identyfied by their love amongst themselves and by
their good works and are not part of this world.
2)The day when Jehovah will establish His Kingdom on earth as it
already is in heaven is not far away. Not far at all. As Peter and
Paul have said: "... in the last days there will come ridiculers with
their ridicule, proceeding to their own desires and saying 'where is
this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell
asleep, all things are continuing exactly as from creation's
beginning'"  but also:
"You people know the season, that it is already the hour for you to
awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time
when we became believers"

Fruitfly_-ga, 

If desired, I will take a picture of the publication in front of me. 

Now, I don't tolerate religious lies, and the lying liars who tell
them. So, I will do great pleasure in removing the two Watchtower
magazines from my trash and refute all your political spin:

"Oh, you probably mean the Watchtower...'Do you want to live forever'
and 'How to make real friends'?..."

Yes, that is exactly what I listed, except on the cover they
capitalize the live forever. It really reads, "Do You Want to LIVE
FOREVER," and on the other, "How to Make Real Friends." The ?real
friends? is in italics. Again, exactly what I said.

"I have THOROUGHLY checked them and can't find ANYTHING like you've said."

Okay? What did I say? All I did was quote the titles of the
publications, which you listed yourself. Maybe instead of translating
your pamphlet from Croatian, you should get the English addition.

"What I DO find on page 2."

On page 2, and I quote: "Publication of the Watchtower is part of a
worldwide Bible educational work supported by voluntary donations."
The guy who stopped me said I could send a donation to the address
listed below the comment, "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New
York, Inc., 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, NY 11201-2483.

Regarding the quotes you listed in your post, I never said anything
about the articles. Oh, and before you start giving quotes, make sure
you have the English addition.

"I know you wouldn't like to be considered as a liar and slenderer."

You really need to get the English book, or get a better concept of English.

"all organnized religions wereready to support their own nations
against another regardless of the faith of the opposing nation. And
that goes for all the wars throughout the history of humankind."

Okay? What about the conflicts, which are not, wars? For example, the
witch hunts? See, all the stuff you type is more religious spin and
bullpoop.

"[KILLED] AGAINST THE OFFICIAL INSTRUCTIONS OF THEIR CHURCH LEADERS!"

What about the Catholics in the Crusades? lol, you're a joke. 

"The day when Jehovah will establish His Kingdom on earth as it
already is in heaven is not far away."

Here we go, spreading fear to get my money.

Hello Wannabeleader!
I'm glad you cleared the things up - now I understand.
The way you put it before seemed like you were approached to donate
money. That's why I reacted obviously a bit too harsh. I'm sorry!
Really am.
It appears it's nothing like that. You were simply given magazines and
told that if you appreciate the contents and find them valuable you
can support the Bible educational work by donating what you think is
appropriate - or something like that, if not in these words. You said
yourself everything happened pretty fast, so it's quite understandable
why you misunderstood him. What is important to learn is 'never to
ascribe another man wrong intentions' - we don't read hearts!
Anyway, nobody 'sold' you anything. Which they would if that was about
the money, right? Like the dongles and rosemaries and crosses and
stickers they sell in front of the churches. Ever heard one of these
tradesmen saying something like 'here, take it, take it all, and if
you appreciate it, if you feel like it, you can donate'?
No? I thought so!
So what's the sour face? OK, you didn't appreciate them - you threw
them away - ok,end of story! What's the big fuss? It's you who got (at
least)something while giving nothing in return. Not that man who gave
you magazines.(Don't think that  this is somehow held against you :) )
But it IS him who just gave, while you are the one who just received,
regardless of unappreciation. Right? Or maybe you think he shouldn't
have even MENTION they don't come out of thin air? Maybe that!?
In any case you were in no loss, so what's that panic fear about your money?
Whatever!

Regarding English language: I'm glad to see you're not a native Eglish
speaker either. Two things betrayed you: bad spelling (it's not
'addition' but 'edition' - (besides - all the translations are
identical- and I mean it:identical! - and published simultaneously all
over the planet Earth).
The second is you didn't understand we two agree on this: when I
said:"noble individuals who didnt follow their compatriots [in
killings] ...did that AGAINST THE OFFICIAL INSTRUCTIONS OF THEIR
CHURCH LEADERS!"
I didn't mean what you have constructed: "[KILLED] AGAINST THE
OFFICIAL INSTRUCTIONS OF THEIR CHURCH LEADERS!" ... as if their
leaders were against the killings!!!
On the contrary! We can start counting from Egypt and Assyria...Pun
wars, to World wars...they've all been blessed by the organized
religions. And you're right, not only wars, but witch hunts,
sacrifices, crusades, skirmishes, small arms fire, big arms fire....
you name it! I hope I don't have to put forward all possible English
words?
Although.... that might help us improve our second language, right?! ;)

"What's the big fuss? It's you who got (at least)something while
giving nothing in return."

Religious organizations should not ask for money, while contributing
to the Bush campaign and fighting homosexuality. If the money I donate
to a religious organization went to provide more food for the starved,
I would be glad to support.

In addition, religion is something so sacred. It shouldn't be
dominated by the politics of organizations, promoting one thought. It
should be shared by the millions, under the diverse belief of love,
peace and respect.

I mentioned this link (above)...just wanted to make sure you didn't
miss it in the heat of the moment:



http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=501208

wannabe, this has gone so far from your original question it seems
like we are talking about religion here. Your last statement on
religion is one of the best I have ever heard. I wish to introduce
something I have been aware of for some time, you might find this
angle interesting. The people who come to your door and offer to bring
God and also to give you a pamplet that is free, and of course they
would most graciously accept a donation. Lets look at that. Most of
these types of religion believe that by doing this they are doing Gods
work. Spreading Gods word for the common good. Now the rewards for
doin this all lead to these people going to heaven for doign this, as
well as what ever else they do in there religion. So then, what is the
motive here? Well to me I think the intent here is to secure a place
in heaven by doing this, there for the person at the door is really
there for himself, not me, and the donation he so graciously askes for
is to suport the orginazation that he believes is going to get his
butt there. So is he really doing anything for you and is the donation
for anything but himself? I can't say, but when ever I have spooken
with these people, they are self motivated. So these people can
believe all they want that they are doing the right thing, the choice
is their's, but you had best know your motive it you knock on my door.

I am going to post a new question you might find interesting, watch for it.

airspace

Paf,

Note that I posted that link in my first comment, a week ago, and
received no response from the customer.

pinkfreud-ga,

I read your comment, it sounds good. I wanted to see if someone had another answer.

Wannabeleader

airspace,

"...we are talking about religion here"

I'm still talking about organized religion.

wannabe, I am courious, what are you looking for? "It's important to
list the event and religious group affiliated with the killings." I
mean the statement of mine was an obvious attempt at humor, nothing
more. I am not even sure what you are insinuating.  My complete
comment was about a topic you introduced. I was only giveing you my
thoughts on it, sorry. I would just like you to know I am not trying
to fight with you.

take care of you,
airspace

My last comment wasn't in a combative nature. In this debate, it was
important to seperate religion from organized, that is why I posted my
last comment.

Take care, and I look forward to reading a similar post regarding
religion from you.

Wannabeleader

Hi airspace [St...e] This is a bit off the subject and I hope you dont
mind me putting this in the public forum, but in your comment to
Wannabe, you said that the folks who knock on your door..I presume you
mean Jehovahs Witnesses...do it to secure for themselves a place in
heaven. Sorry mate, but I must correct you on that. The Witnesses
believe in what is said at Revelation 14;1, that only a very small
number [144,000] out of all the billions that have ever lived and died
, will be 'taken' to heaven. All the rest, the billions, will be
resurrected back to a cleansed earth. As described in Psalm 37. That
is their basic belief. If they can show you what the Bible actually
says, and you accept it, you will change your ways and in doing so
actually save your own life. The Witnesses believe that only those
doing exactly what God wants will survive the coming 'Armageddon', and
they would like others to survive also. It is not about saving
themselves. IF that were the case, all they would have to do is look
to their own behaviour and leave the rest to perish. A scripture
describes it very accurately . Matthew 7; 13,14. Hope that clarifies
your misunderstanding. Cheers. G.

wannabeleader - you obviously have me confused with someone who is
trying to give you the answer to your question.  My COMMENTS are in
the COMMENT section (comment is defined as a statement of fact or
opinion, especially a remark that expresses a personal reaction or
attitude).  All I have done is expressed my opinion, stated some
facts, and asked some questions.

With a little more work, you might eventually understand communication.

Sorry for the confusion.

ilmag

ilmag,

Then why did you try and answer the question, IN THE COMMENT SECTION:

"How many people has organized religion killed?

Religion has not killed anyone, but people have killed people.

There's the answer to your question."

I agree, it is simply your opinion based on peer bs.

wannabeleader - that was not an answer, but merely another comment
based upon our previous posts in order see exactly what you meant by
"will not be tolerated."

I have taken your "will not be tolerated" to mean that you will
respond poorly to every comment relating to your question.

Later.

ilmag

wannabe, haven't you noticed yet that all of ilmag's comments are
telling you that what he knows is the way it is and if you don't
believe him your damed. So you are interested in my thoughts on
religion. Well I most admite I am flattered, and have given the point
you have pointed out to me much concideration. This is a very
preplexing point for religion by it's general nature is about faith.
Now faith by itself is unsubstantiated belief, or belief in nothing.
So when you consider that 70% of humans are followers this makes faith
a very dangerous thing, as is evident in all the religious massacers.
You see, why faith is responsible for this is because of what belief
is. Belief is knowledge and understanding, so when a persons knowledge
and understand,(belief)is pushed beyond their ablity to understand,
the a human will grasp on to their faith, which is someone else's
understanding,(what someone has explained to them eailer or their
understanding of what is in a book). ilmag is evidence of this in his
claims to have such faith and makes no attempt to understand anyone
else.

What I have said has made religion look like a bad thing, and religion
has, in far to many cases has been a bad thing. But this does not take
away from the importance of religion, rather it points to the
importance of it. Yes 70% of humans are followers, this means that we
need guidence, not everybody will try hard to understand. So if we
need guidence, and there for religion, it must also be organized. Now
I see two major flaws with organized religion, still quite evident
today. First since we do need organized religion for the guidence of
all humanity, then the goal of all religious leaders should be to come
to one understanding for all religions, and their debate should not
stop untill this is reached. Two is that all religions set up the
existance of a class system and therefor completely take away what
religion should represent the most; equality.

So here we have a problem, we are said to have eternal existance. Now
to have eternal existance we most be equal to God. Now in my postings
I have tried to explain my understanding of how we can, and infact are
equal to God, but not his equal. Now I know this explaination is
simple to understand and makes sence, but if religion were to accept
that we are equal to God. Well then some all mighty religious leader
might have to get down off his high horse and give his shinny red
clook to a freezing bum. So, aren't we in a pickle.

For me the main lesson in the life of Jesus is where I get my
objective truth, "I am equal in this world when I choose to be." As
the only begotten son of God or as a mere man, he died trying to help
us understand this and no one stood beside him. In over two thousand
years we still have choosen not to understand this most obvious lesson
in the life of Jesus. Jesus lived, the value of every human life as
equal, which is more then evident, so this, as far as I can see, makes
the intentional taking of any human life by Christianity, not only
insanely conterdictory, but also quite insulting to Christ.

pug, good to hear from you. You raise a intersting point. It is a
truth as I see it that we look to ourselves for understanding. Now if
you agree with this , then this statement is not in line with this
thinking. "If they can show you what the Bible actually says, and you
accept it, you will change your ways and in doing so actually save
your own life." This show that they are telling you I need to accept
their understanding, and that it can't be wrong because they have it
in a book. Are you able to understand why this falls far short of
anything for me to believe in. Also your defence of these people
showing up at my door is incorrect first, because the human animal
does nothing that is not to benefit himself first, no matter how good
the intentions. And secound, correct me if I am wrong, but is it not
God's will for these people to spread Gods word this way, in
accordance with the scriptures they follow. And if this is the case,
then this is again evidence of self motives for knocking at my door.
One more thing pug, I have said I feel no need to read the bible, this
does not mean I am not interested in it. Here you have given your
understanding and view point, you have also correctly used the bible
to show where you get your understanding. These I will happly read. It
is when someone gives me the bible as their understanding that I shut
off. Take care,

airspace

ilmag,

"I pray you find the truth."

To whom are you praying?  Just curious.

Also, I don't think it is necessary to use quotations when quoting
yourself (I could be wrong, though).

ilmag

ilmag,

This is all too much, haha. 

"it is necessary to use quotations when quoting yourself (I could be
wrong, though)"

Yes, you are wrong. I was using it from your post on 26 Jul 2005 15:26
PDT. You said something very similar.

"To whom are you praying?"

I have always said I believe in a religion, but not organized
religion. I quote myself, "religion is something so sacred. It
shouldn't be dominated by the politics of organizations, promoting one
thought. It should be shared by the millions, under the diverse belief
of love, peace and respect."

Now, the debate has ended, but I can only hope, one day, for America,
the spirit of freedom, peace and truth voids the murder and politics
organized religion has produced in your soul.

Goodnight and god bless.

Wannabeleader

wannabeleader - Well, I don't like to be misquoted.  Please note that
I referred to the Truth (note the all important capitalized T), and
not the garden variety form of truth which you presumably seek.

Nonetheless, I hope I have sufficiently worn you out with ridiculous
questions with the hope that in the near future you will take caution
before you ask one.  Yes, there are people in the world like me.

Be blessed!

ilmag

"sufficiently worn you out with ridiculous questions with the hope
that in the near future you will take caution before you ask one."

I will never stop asking questions, which are vital for America. This
is exactly what religious funatics and organizations want--to stop the
train of thought, the freedom of self expression, and to promote one
standard against the American Dream. Opinions expressed in a singular
view, can end in war.

"Yes, there are people in the world like me."

People similar to you, will live up to the history, eventually.

wannabeleader - Please, do not stop asking questions; just learn to
phrase them in manners that are coherent (see personification rules of
the English language).

Further and for the record, you don't know me, you do not know what I
have done, you don't know what I am doing, nor what I plan to do.  Yet
you have assumed many things about me, and now have a bias against me.
 I hope that your bias doesn't run its historical course.

As for your last statment, I hope and pray that I live up to history
of those who have gone before me in what I follow.  Let me name just a
few - Jesus Christ, David (son of Jesse, past king of Israel), Paul of
Taursus, Martin Luther,  Brother Lawrence, C.S. Lewis,Abraham Lincoln,
Billy Graham (I could go on).

Just so you know, I truly do hope that you find the Truth in all your
questions.  It is closer than you think.  God bless!

ilmag

"(see personification rules of the English language)"

haha, okay? My question was phrased perfectly clear. I am sorry you
had a challenging time understanding.

"Further and for the record, you don't know me, you do not know what I
have done, you don't know what I am doing, nor what I plan to do."

I have never said I know you, nor do I ever want too.

ilmag, you know the Truth as opposed to the truth do you. Wow! I am
impressed, so tell me where does your truth come from, and please
spear me the horse poo it's in a book and you know it is right bit. Oh
and one more thing, haven't you been going on about how Jesus is
something much more then you or I, yet he is the FIRST you compared
yourself too, a little confused I think, or are you now saying Jesus
belongs in your little band of mere mortals.

Wake up, all you want to do is tell everybody you are right, and you
have nothihg to back it up with, please give it a rest.

airspace

airspace,

I agree.

WBLR

wannabeleader ? I love you.

airspace - I love you too.

To both of you:

You want the Truth (John 14:6).  His name is Jesus Christ (Matthew
1:21).  He was God made flesh (John 1:1).  He is the only way to know
God, the Father (John 14:6, 7).  Jesus died on a cross at Golgotha
(Matthew 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17).  Jesus rose from
the dead (Matthew 28:6).  Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God
the Father (Colossians 3:1).  Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in
the heart's of those who receive it (Ephesians 1:13).  The same Spirit
that raised Jesus from the dead now dwells in me and also dwells or
dwelt in the "little band of mere mortals" you referenced (Romans
8:11).  Again I could go on, but I am willing to bet you have heard
it(and rejected it) before.

I pray that God will reveal to you the Truth.  I can't do that.  I can
only pray for you and lead you to it.  The rest is up to you.

I'm sorry if I have offended by some of my comments or the method of
delivery of my comments.  It has not been nor will it ever be my
intent to offend you.

For your edification, you have not offended me in any way (even if you
have attempted to offend me).  I choose not to be offended.

I'm not here to defend the Bible, nor am I here to defend God.  I am
here to love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to
love my neighbor as myself bringing pleasure to God the Father through
His plan for mankind revealed through His Word, His Son, His Spirit,
and the prophets who speak through that Spirit.

Be blessed!

ilmag

ilmag, You are starting to come closer to your goal I think, and if
this is to help people find God, then please consider what I have to
say. First, you hve used the bible again as where the truth is. This
is only partly correct the way I see it. Second, you say that I heard
it and rejected it before, wrong, and I have made it clear that I do
not disagree with the bible. "I pray that God will reveal to you the
Truth." Well God does reveal to me the Truth as he does to everyone,
the choice is your's to follow it. The bible can be used to verify it,
but the truth is within us all to chose. "I can only pray for you and
lead you to it." Thank you for your prayers', sorry you can not lead
anyone to the truth, but with the bible you can help them verify it
for themselves. "The rest is up to you." Well it is all up to you, no
one else can chose for you. The bible can and someone like you, ilmag,
can help with what you think the bible means in relation to their
choice. But only you and God can know the true intent of your choice,
the bible can't, and since you can never truly fully understand one's
true intent, then you can't say what is right for them. You don't know
the Truth for anyone except yourself, and this is all of us. ilmag, we
are on the same side you just refuse to see it. I hope you gain
understanding from what I have put here and become better in you quest
of helping bring the Truth to people.

take care of you,
airspace

airspace - You speak of the Truth of Jesus Christ as if it is relative
to every human being.  It seems you are saying that what is true for
one might not be true for another.  While that may be the case with
opinions, in is not true with Jesus Christ.  According God's revealed
Word, His Word (Truth, Law, character, nature, etc.) is unchanging,
absolute, and eternal (See Hebrews 6:17; Psalm 119:160; let me know if
you need more references).

No matter what one person's perspective or opinion of God is, it does
not change God or His Truth.  If we focus on our perspective, then we
are missing the point and will get caught up in useless thinking that
does not please God.  The focus must be God.

I pray do not get caught up in your own thinking, but that you are
controlled by the Holy Spirit (See Romans 8:5-11).

ilmag

ilmag, 

I'm tired of the political religious spin. Again, my question has to
do with organized religion, not the Bible or Christ. My point is
clear: Religion = good. The organization = bad. Escaping the
implications, is not knowing the truth. I pray, one day, for America,
the truth will fill your heart on judgment day.

My favorite quote you listed, "I pray [you] do not get caught up in
your own thinking." Again, I will never stop thinking. This is exactly
what religious fanatics and organizations want--to stop the train of
thought, the freedom of self expression, and to promote one standard
against the American Dream. This craziness led to the Crusades, witch
hunts and September 11th.

I wish, during these crimes, someone thought freely and stood up for
their country, not a religious affiliation. The death, destruction and
murder will not be voided by your 'Christ love'.

"According God's revealed Word, His Word (Truth, Law, character,
nature, etc.) is unchanging, absolute, and eternal"

But, organized religion's judgment is not eternal, absolute or
unchanging. The political fight against homosexuals and the
re-election campaign of Bush is against God's will. In fact, what is
God's will you speak so purely in absolute deception of? Before
listing a covert answer, cross reference all the other religions, and
come up with something suitable--impossible.

Now, I'm not done wasting my time. I want an answer to my question: 

How many people has organized religion killed?

With exuberant love,

Wannabeleader

wannabeleader - Again, I am not trying to answer your question. 
Apparently, someone has already done that in a previous thread.  And
for 5 dollars, I wouldn't expect much more.  Good luck with finding
the answer to your question!

Note also that you are free to stop responding to my comments.

You stated, "Organized religion's judgment is not eternal, absolute or
unchanging."  I agree.  I have never condoned the acts of those
associated with organized religion that were not in accord with God's
Word.

However, you also stated, "The political fight against homosexuals and
the re-election campaign of Bush is against God's will."  This is
ultimately contrary to God's Word which states, "Obey the government,
for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed
in power by God (Romans 13:1 NLT)."  His Word also states, "Do not
practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin (Leviticus 18:22 NLT)."

God's will is plain.  It is simply stated in the bible.  And for those
who have never read it, it is also revealed in His creation.  No one
has an excuse for not knowing His will.  It is your choice to believe
it or your choice to reject it.

No, I did not cross reference any other religions in my answer.  It is
not necessary.  I concede that Christianity is unique.

You stated, "Again, I will never stop thinking. This is exactly what
religious fanatics and organizations want--to stop the train of
thought, the freedom of self expression, and to promote one standard
against the American Dream. This craziness led to the Crusades, witch
hunts and September 11th.  I wish, during these crimes, someone
thought freely and stood up for their country, not a religious
affiliation. The death, destruction and murder will not be voided by
your 'Christ love'."  I will only speak for the Christian
organizations of which I am a part.

We want God's protection and provision over our lives and our country.
 We want to spread God's message of love, hope, and faith in God.  We
hate that war is necessary, but we pray for those who are willing to
give up their lives defending our God-given freedoms and promote what
is good.

We are grieved by those who think they have a "human" answer to a
super-human problem and insist, with futility, on trying to mask sin
as free-thought and self expression without realizing that the only
reason they can think or express themselves is because it was endowed
to them by their Creator.  Everyday we give up ourselves to know God,
and we will joyfully do it tomorrow because to know God is to know the
source of all that is good, holy, noble and pure.  God is the reason
we live.

I don't know why you live or for what you live, but I pray, one day,
for you, that the truth will fill your heart before judgment day.  By
then, it will be too late.

God bless!

ilmag

ilmag-ga,

As the day goes by, the hate spreads. When you could be fighting
poverty, you are destroying those who are American, and diverse. When
organized religion could be spreading more love, peace and prosperity,
they re-elected President Bush.

These are the true colors, and not your lies. And the facade you pray
for, indulge in, the pettiness of ruthless judgment needs to end. The
justification of hate against those who are gay, and the re-election
of Bush are pathetic. The Bible might voice contempt, but it doesn't
harbor judgment, and those who judge, go to hell.

"...We hate that war is necessary..."

War is NEVER necessary in spreading Christianity. Americans don't want
a consolation prize of, ?oh it's alright you died, have a scoop of
Christianity.? A religious war mentality is the same, which drives
terrorists. Do I need to say more?

Ilmag-ga, you can die for your faith, but I'll die for America. War to
promote religion is shameful.

God Bless Yourself,

Wannabeleader

ilmag, you have now made it quite clear that you are exactly what
wannabeleader has said you are. This I see is unfurtuinate for I can
see your will and faith are strong but blindly misguided. My last
posting to you would appear to anyone else as an honest, from the
heart, attempt to come any understanding with you. You have made it
obvious that this is something you chose to refuse to do. Do you
realize how simple you make yourself appear. You obviously have a
rudimentary concept of sin, at best. You actually present that I need
the bible to know it is wrong to kill, yet you condone killing with
the use of the bible. You actually relate opinion to choice. Well we
certainly have choice of opinion, which you clearly indicate here.
Opinion can certainly influence choice, but choice is choice and to
sin is a choice. And since you say I can't make any choices with out
the bible then please tell what to do. Marmalade or jam on my toast in
the morning, or is the "Truth" peanut butter. Please ilmag, I don't
want to sin so what is the right choice, according to the bible.
ilmag, you might want to concider this story I am about to tell you
very seriously. I was talking to a Jehovah's Witness(not saying you
are), about several things, for over 2 hours while we waited for the
birth of his wife's Grandaughter. One thing I ask was what he thought
of Darwins theory of evolution. We didn't talk much about it. It went
against his faith. Well later in the conversation he said, "I don't
know about Darwins theory of evolution, but I've studied (2 books I
believe he named)for 20 years and I know where I am going." Well I
refrained from saying the obvious, "if you studied Darwin's theory of
evolution for 20 years you would believe in that, you fool." Anyone
who puts all their faith in anything man made is fooling themselve's.
Another very important thing which you obviously chose not to aply to
yourself is desire. This is the thing that makes it very hard to
resist what we want. Want, that might be where we find sin, but you
would know. Now I can hardly resist gawking at what I find to be an
attractive female. Not every female I find attractive fits my desire.
So desire is not all choice, but to act upon it is. Well my desire
fits with the norm, but my understanding of desire makes me thank God,
every day, that I do not desire childern. But not because of God, I
know not how he will judge me for acting upon the desire he gives me.
I do know how the devil, MAN, will judge me. By the way ilmag, fear of
homosexuality indicates homosexuality, because we all fear man's
judgement. Also, those blinded by their precived power to judge, use
"Gods' judgement" to creat fear and suport their own judgements. This
also enables a person to justify sin in the name of God. So now I can
start to kill people because someone preaching a book says it is
nessessary and what God wants. Well there is no question that to kill
is a sin and nothing, I don't believe, is going to change how I feel
about that choice. So I think I will continue in life as I have been
doing,(making choices based on my internal feelings of right and
wrong) and keep looking over my shoulder for people like you ilmag,
the one's who might kill me because they can't decide for themselves.

wannabeleader, I can honestly addmite that I am not sure where you
stand on America. I am Canadian so I know you better then you know me,
(in general and not personally as individuals) in many ways I consider
myself to have much more freedom then you. I had seven choices on my
last ballot, you have only ever had two. Even in the American way and
in persuite of the American dream, you can't even by your way on to
the ballot. To me America is the biggest problem in the world today
and the political power I fear by far the most. And this dosen't make
much difference to me if you rae in or out of the bushes, the country
does not see anything but what it wants. Now wannabe, tell me why you
want to be leader?(what do you really think?)

"To me America is the biggest problem in the world today and the
political power I fear by far the most."

America is going through challenging times, I agree. However,
neo-conservatives, with backing from the white Evangelical Christians,
are driving this madness.

Now, to continue my religious rant:

The problem is darkened by the Bush campaign donating $65 billion to
religious organizations through the faith-based initiative. When
Evangelicals speak of God and political support for Bush, it is not
coming from their heart or the Bible. They have an agenda to get more
money, to spread the power of faith and their influence.

Now, to answer your question more directly:

Americans are Yankees, we will always be self-seeking, it is human
nature. It is sad, and wrong. I cannot justify the implications
America has caused over the years, but hope, our country will find its
way...eventually. The first step is taking our country back from the
right and moral majority.

After, American?s can change the approach on terrorism and in Iraq.
What the Bush presidency has done is absolute crap, and the world
image of America during Clinton was strong. I will never forget those
days.

I am interested in hearing a Canadian's opinion on this subject; mine
are willing to change over a good debate. Have a great day.

Wannabeleader

I just wanted to add:

"I had seven choices on my last ballot, you have only ever had two."

This is wrong. It depends on the state you live in, and there are
normally 4-5 candidates on the ballet. I do agree, the press only
covers the Republicans and Democrats, but Americans have their choice
on who runs for those two parties in the primaries. For example,
during the democratic primaries, we had 9 people to choose from, and
we chose Kerry.

WBLR

wannabeleader, you have inspired me to go post a new question I have
been thinking of. Your willness and appearent openness on the topic
has help me gain the strength to post this question. It will be under
politicals and should prove quite controversial and open for
interesting debate. look forwad to your comments.

This certainly shows mulitude of choice, but what about diversity of choice?

Take care,
airspace

I look forward to reading your post.

"what about diversity of choice"

We have different people and parties on the ballets, it really depends
on each state. For example, in Washington State I could have voted for
the libertarian parties canadiate, who favors non-intervention in
social to economics issues from the government.

Have a good one. 

WBLR

airspace / wannabeleader - I haven't read your posts.  I'm sure they
are wonderful.  I don't have time to respond today, and I am tired of
trying to defend something that doesn't need a defense.  I apologize
for ever opening this can of worms.  I will no longer respond in this
thread.

God bless both of you and God bless America!

ilmag

Have a good day and Godbless.

Wannabeleader

religion does not kill. people do. misguided people.

Please can I just make the following points:

a) it is unfair to lump all religions together under the heading
"organized religion" - some organized religions have killed millions
others have killed none, the combine them all together into one
category of "organized religions" would imply that they were all
equally guilty.

b) it is unfair to blame God for the actions of some organized
religions - he does not condone any killing that is currently taking
place on Earth.  While his earthly representatives still functioned as
a literal nation (Israel) certain justified killings took place.  I
know this could raise a whole new controversy but the applications of
his law within a single literal nation was the right and choice of
that nation.  Now that God's earthly representatives are found in all
nations they obey the bible command to be "subject to the secular
authorities."  In other words, they should obey the laws of the land
in which they live, except where those laws overstep God's laws. 
God's law states "You must not murder" and "You must love your
neighbour as yourself" and "You must love your enemies."  Therefore,
anyone who claims to worship God should not kill or fight in war.

c) Those "organized religions" who kill "in the name of God" are not
actually carrying out God's will.  There are "organized religions" who
do obey God's will ... and God states in the Bible that there is "one
God, one faith."  Therefore, the goal of any true bible student should
be to identify which of the many faiths is the "one faith" that God
approves.  True bible students can instantly cross off the list any
religion that kills, promotes killing or condones killing - including
those who bless the actions of war and terrorism.  When they discover
the "one faith" they will find that faith to be uncompromising in its
stand for what is right, and yet tolerant of the right of others to
stand for their own beliefs.  The "one faith" will follow the bible
command to preach God's word but it will also respect the rights of
those to whom it preaches to choose their own course of action.  It
won't try to force obedience to God's laws.  God is the judge of man,
not man!  When God chooses to judge mankind it will be in his own time
and his own way.  Mankind does not have the right to judge man or to
take his life.

people have to realize that god sent a prophet to create each religion
in order to give religiouse optons as to see witch religion was right
and helped the person more. all the rules are basicly the same. be
good and rightouse and do on to others as you expect to be done on to
you. maybee not in those words exactly but it wa a good way to sum it
up. God never wanted the diffrent religions fighting and killing each
other. Praying to a statue or giving money to religion is a sin. We
have to stop believing the lies of religion and just belive in god.
Stop the violence. Stop the religions. Just know that god is their for
you. Watch the movie stigmata and pay close attention to the end and
read the captions. The kingdome of god is within