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Subject:
bringing down swimming pool temperature
Category: Science > Math Asked by: hkapasia-ga List Price: $2.00 |
Posted:
28 Jul 2005 09:18 PDT
Expires: 27 Aug 2005 09:18 PDT Question ID: 548986 |
how many lbs of ice will it take to bring down the temp of a 20000 gallon pool of water by 1 degreee |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: research_help-ga on 28 Jul 2005 09:44 PDT |
You would need 350 gallons of 32 degree water (ice) to bring 20,000 gallons of water from 90 degrees to 89 degrees, but keep in mind this will only be a temporary change if it is hotter than 89 out. According to this article http://slate.msn.com/id/1003374/, you would need about 875 pounds of ice. |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: firmware-ga on 29 Jul 2005 01:43 PDT |
32 degree water is not the same thing as ice. A block of ice will absorb more energy than an equivelent volume of 32 degree water to overcome its latent heat of melting. |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: research_help-ga on 29 Jul 2005 06:05 PDT |
Firmware - try an experiment. Get a cup of water. Put it in a 32 degree area (freezer) and come back in one hour. Tell me what you see. |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: firmware-ga on 29 Jul 2005 09:04 PDT |
I see I made an error, what I should have said is that a block of ice will absorb more energy than an equivalent MASS of 32 degree water. You MUST take account of latent heat when you answer this type of problem - look here for more information on latent heat (www.physchem.co.za/Heat/Latent.htm). Research_help_ga's answer is wrong because he/she didn't do this. This look suspiciously like a homework question, so I won't give the answer. However, the correct approach is to derive an equation for how much energy is required to first melt x lb of ice (assume it starts at 32 degrees), then raise the temperature of x lb of water to 89 degrees. Next work out how much energy is lost when the pool cools by 1 degree. You know that the energy lost by the pool cooling must all be absorbed by the ice/cold water - so you will be able to relate this to your equation and solve for x. 875lb is not too far out, but you will get a different figure if you do the math.. |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: myoarin-ga on 29 Jul 2005 09:43 PDT |
And who said how cold the ice is? The stuff in my deepfreeze is -18°C, ca. 0°F. I would venture to say that in practice ice is always several degrees colder than 32°F. And since we are playing with the question: a part of the surface of the ice will be absorbing energy from the air. With square blocks of ice, that surface would be a little over 1/6th, with spheres of ice - the minimum surface area - it would be less ( nice additional calculation). But if we wanted to avoid this by submerging the ice, and made the mistake of keeping on the bottom of the pool, that would - I believe - upset the effect of convection, the ice sitting on a level of cooler, heavier water, slowing the absorbtion of energy by the ice. Oh, maybe eventually that doesn't make any difference, as long as there is no additional warming of the water from the air, the process just takes longer. Or not? |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: firmware-ga on 29 Jul 2005 10:34 PDT |
No one said how cold the ice is, which is why we must make an assumption. Of course myoarin-ga is right that the ice would almost certainly have a lower temperature, but by assuming the ice is at 32 degrees, we can work out the worst case scenario: i.e. the answer that requires the most ice (and expense!) Since we are only given one temperature for the pool we must assume the pool is well stirred (using a mechanism that does not raise the temperature), so the effects of convection can safely be ignored. And as for the effects of the air... why assume it acts only on the ice? Any warming, or cooling effect of the air will affect the whole exposed surface of the pool. To take that into account we would need to know something about the temperature of the air, speed of the air, the humidity, the surface area of the pool etc. which makes the whole problem far too complicated for a homework assignment ;-) |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: racecar-ga on 02 Aug 2005 14:02 PDT |
In order to give an exact answer, you must know the initial temperature of the water and the ice. Let's assume the ice is at 32 deg F, and the water is 70 deg F. (Probably when you say degrees you mean F, since you asked for lbs of ice). Now I'm going to change everything to SI units because that's what I'm used to. Initial temperature is 21.111 deg C, final temperature is 20.555 deg C, mass of water is 75708 kg, heat capcity of water is 4180 J/kg/deg C, so heat lost by water is 175.8 MJ. That heat went into the ice, mostly to melt it, but also partly to heat it up to 20 deg. The latent heat of fusion for water is 334000 J/kg, and, using the heat capacity of water, heating water from 0 to 20.555 costs 85922 J/kg, for a total of 420000 J/kg. Since total required heat is 175800000 J, that means about 419 kg of ice, or 923 lbs. So: changing the temperature of a 20000 gal swimming pool from 70 deg F to 69 deg F requires 923 lbs of ice. |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: myoarin-ga on 02 Aug 2005 15:02 PDT |
Racecar-ga, That is all over my head - and seems to suggest that the correct answer is beyond what could be expected for a school assignment in gallons and lbs. In the dim past of my high school physics, I seem to remember that freezing water required more energy than that needed to bring water down to 0°C (excuse any misuse of terms). If this is true, then wouldn't ice at 0°C absorb more heat than water at 0°C? Or is this reflected in your calculation - "latent heat of fusion of water"? Hkapasia-ga, If this was a school assignment, it would be very interesting to learn what was considered to be the correct answer. :-) Thanks, both of you, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: racecar-ga on 02 Aug 2005 15:49 PDT |
Yep, latent heat of fusion is just the amount of energy required to melt a given mass of, in this case, ice. And yes, ice does most of its cooling with latent heat (by absorbing energy in the course of changing phase from solid to liquid). To cool a 20000 gal swimming pool from 70 deg to 69 deg, you would have to add over 500 gal of 32 deg water (4000 lbs, more than 4 times as much as if you add 32 deg ice). |
Subject:
Re: bringing down swimming pool temperature
From: myoarin-ga on 02 Aug 2005 17:26 PDT |
Wow! Thanks very much Racecar-ga. I wonder if the teacher knows that? Myoarin |
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