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Q: CPU overheating -- PSU issue? ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   2 Comments )
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Subject: CPU overheating -- PSU issue?
Category: Computers > Hardware
Asked by: eller-ga
List Price: $14.50
Posted: 09 Aug 2005 13:43 PDT
Expires: 08 Sep 2005 13:43 PDT
Question ID: 553707
A self-built Athlon XP system recently stopped working after nearly a
year of rock-solid performance. No recent hardware or software changes
were made to the system; it just up and quit in the middle of my World
of Warcraft session. :( Specifically, my Soyo motherboard will
force shutdown after a few minutes of operation due to the CPU
overheating. I have confirmed that the shutdown is occuring because
the motherboard is *registering* CPU temperatures of over 85 degrees
C, but I have not actually confirmed that the chip is getting this
hot. Then again, aside from the sudden onset of this problem, I have
no reason to believe that the thermal sensor is malfunctioning.

Despite the addition of three aftermarket case/CPU fans, the system
always did run pretty hot, although now that I think of it I was never
convinced that the readings were correct even when everything was
running fine. It would report 45 C the second I cold-booted it, which
always seemed pretty high, and during heavy load would creep up into
the high 50s. I did everything I could to keep the temperature down
short of water-cooling it, and was always frustrated by the seemingly
high temperatures. But it never even spiked into the 70/80 range, and
it certainly never shut down before.

Anyway, now I can only run it for a few minutes before it shuts down.
I have opened the case and confirmed that all fans are still
operational, not just CPU/case fans but video card and PSU fans as
well. The Soyo website mentions that one possible cause is a defective
power supply (http://www.soyo.com.tw/kb/kbdesc.php?id=170), but
doesn't go into any more detail. My question is, what could be the
cause of this sudden, drastic overheating, and does it sound like a
PSU issue?

In my 5 or 6 years of building computers, I've been lucky enough to
never have a PSU die on me, so I can't really say if my PSU's the
culprit. It's a 450w running what I would assume is a pretty light
load (Athlon XP 3200, 1GB DDR, 1 optical drive, 1 SATA HDD, Geforce4,
2 Thermaltake case fans). It's not dead; it still seems to power the
system, its fan still works and everything, so I am hesitant to
believe that an otherwise fully functioning PSU is causing my CPU to
overheat. Then again, as I said, I'm not very experienced in PSU
issues, so if these could really be symptoms of a bad PSU, then please
let me know.

So, before I spend $60-plus on a new PSU, I'd like to know if it
sounds like I'm trying the right fix. Nothing seems physically wrong
with the other hardware: The CPU fan and heatsink still seems to be
seated correctly. I admit I haven't taken it off to look at the chip
but I did apply the correct amount of thermal paste during
installation and nothing seems to be out of order. Also, I can't see
any evidence of anything being shorted to the case, though I admit I
probably don't know what to look for in that respect.

Still, let's assume that there are no obvious signs of damage to the
hardware; all fans are running; no odd smells or sounds; based on the
symptoms, could this be a PSU issue? If not, what?
Answer  
Subject: Re: CPU overheating -- PSU issue?
Answered By: sublime1-ga on 09 Aug 2005 18:23 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
eller...

This could, indeed, be a PSU problem, but more troubleshooting
will tell the tale, so take what I post here as a beginning
rather than an end to your answer.

As zodiacman-ga noted, all those fans pulling air into the
guts of your PC, with no filtration, tends to result in the
accumulation of massive amounts of dust. Bunnies are one 
thing, but the worst problem is caked-on dust which builds
up on the fins of the CPU heatsink, having been drawn there
by the CPU fan. Additionally, the blades of the CPU fan are
typically encrusted with the dust, as well, and blowing or
sucking with a vacuum may not be adequate to remove it.
This can slow the fan and reduce airflow around the CPU,
resulting in raised operating temperatures.

I also have an Athlon home-built, and I've found it wise
to replace both the CPU heatsink and fan at least once a
year. Not doing so definitely results in higher temps, as
the air circulation around the CPU is greatly diminished.

If the fan and heatsink are still in good shape, I'll 
clean them off with 90% rubbing alcohol and save them for
the next round of replacement, but most fans are made
of thin plastic which seems to break down over time and
become more fragile, so be careful of that. If a fan
starts to make noise, look for it being out of balance
due to one of the blades being malformed over time,
or even starting to break off at the base.


As to the power supply, I use the Antec brand, but
but recently, I started having a problem with the 
hard drive spinning down during high activity, such
as Windows booting up. I finally located one other
post by someone with a similar problem. He also had
the same Antec PSU and used the same program I did
to monitor voltages, Motherboard Monitor. It's
available for free at the home site:
http://mbm.livewiredev.com/

MBM used to be a bear to set up for different mobos,
but now users have provided a list of compatible
boards and setup has been simplified by automatically
using the specs sent in by users. You can check for
your board in the list at the link to the left on 
the main page.

MBM provides realtime monitoring of your CPU temp,
your case temp, your fan speeds, and the voltages,
assuming the sensors are available on your mobo.

What I and the other poster found was that, during
heavy use, yes, the CPU temp would rise, but worse,
the +5V supply, already lower than the +/-5% spec
given by the manufacturer, at 4.58V, would drop
even lower during heavy activity, such as a game,
when it would drop below 4.3V

+/-5% of 5V means no lower than 4.75V.

When I went to replace the PSU, I found something
horrible. I took it apart to inspect it, and if you
think the dust in your PC in general is bad, this 
was just terrible. The entire PSU was filled with 
what looked like the contents of a cannister vacuum.
Naturally, this can only lead to problems.

Now this is due, in part, to the construction of 
Antec supplies, which is that they have two fans
on the unit. One sucks air in from inside the PC,
and the other blows out, providing excellent air
flow. The problem is, it also forces every bit of
dust not captured on your CPU fan, heat sink and 
elsewhere inside your PC, and forces it through
the craggy surfaces of the PSU. And, of course, 
opening it up to clean it voids the warranty.
I think most PSUs have this dual-fan configuration.

I, personally, will be opening it and cleaning it
whenever I replace the CPU fan.


So, for your situation, given the rapid shutdown
I would first check to see just how dirty the 
CPU fan and heatsink are. If they're as dirty as
I think, replacing them is an inexpensive start,
for as little as $10.

Then see if you can stay up, and see if the temps
reported are lower. If so, and you feel safe enough,
check out the Motherboard Monitor site, and, if your
mobo is supported, download it and set it up to run.

Check out the readings, especially the temperatures
and the +5V supply. If they're off by more than 5%,
definitely replace your PSU, and get one that's 
reviewed well in terms of providing voltages within
tolerance. 

The newer Antec's have focused strongly on this, and
one of them, the TruePower, even lets you tweak the
voltages from a front-panel insert, though it's a
550W unit, and costs around $100 currently:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article58-page1.html

SilentPCReview has some excellent reviews of recent
PSUs:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/section4.html


Last, but not least, let me emphasize that, *if*
the PSU is faulty, and your gut tells you not to
fool around, don't! If the PSU is putting out 
voltages which are too high, or if it takes a 
nosedive, it can definitely take out other 
components with it!

My own saga ended with a dead PSU and a hard drive
that wouldn't spin up because the motor-controller
circuitry on the HD circuit board burnt out. When
I tried it with the new PSU, it wouldn't spin up,
and the circuit board got very hot, very fast, in
the area of the motor-controller circuitry on the
board. It also had the ugly smell of hot circuitry.

Whether the drive circuitry failed and took out the
PSU, or the PSU failed and took out the HD, I'll 
never know, but I lost 80GB of archived freeware
that I'll never see again.


Let me know where this takes you, and anything else
you need for a satisfying answer.

Please do not rate this answer until you are satisfied that  
the answer cannot be improved upon by way of a dialog  
established through the "Request for Clarification" process. 

sublime1-ga

Request for Answer Clarification by eller-ga on 12 Aug 2005 06:54 PDT
Thanks for all the info. Here's an update:

The PSU is a Mustang 450w. If I recall correctly, Mustangs aren't
exactly known for their dependability but at least in this case, it
doesn't appear to be the culprit. It's a pretty generic design with a
single exhaust fan, and the inside is actually very clean and free of
dust buildup. I checked the power output with Soyo's mobo monitoring
software and while some voltages were slightly high or low, all were
generally within the tolerance range.

However, the rest of the case is pretty dusty. Particularly, as you
suggested, the CPU heatsink. When I removed the fan I found that there
was a 60-70% blockage from dust buildup among the cooling fins. Yuck.
The fan itself had some dust buildup, but nothing major, and the fan
rotor and blades appeared intact and showed no signs of wear.

So, I removed the heatsink and all case/CPU fans and gave them all a
thorough cleaning with compressed air. I also cleaned out all the
other fans and components and swabbed the case interior down as best I
could. There was really a lot of dust in there. Not the most I've ever
seen, but definitely more than I would have guessed from a 1-year-old
machine.

When I powered it back up, I was happy to see that idle temperatures
now hovered at 40-42. Not that this is ice-cold, but as I mentioned in
my original question, this is a LOT cooler than it had been running.
Basically it's as cool as it ever has been. The only thing that I
didn't do was test it under load, but I was sufficiently convinced
that the heatsink dust blockage had been the problem.

So, I'm quite happy with the info provided and consider my question
answered. However, it's the thick of summer here in my poorly
ventilated Florida apartment and I'd gladly throw in a few extra bucks
if you could offer some advice for the next step I'm about to take.

I am a little wary of just going back to the same old heatsink and
fan, and I'm more than happy to spend a little money on a cooling
upgrade, considering the time and money spent on this system. I was
thinking of trying an unorthodox (read: expensive and alien-looking)
heatsink that allows you to mount a big 92mm fan to it. Assuming it
fits in my system, how does the following setup sound for cooling the
CPU?

Heatsink: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16835108020
Fan: http://www.newegg.com/product/Product.asp?item=N82E16835129032

It seems pretty simple, I just wanted to know if there may be any
issues with throwing a big 92mm case fan onto my CPU.

Also, I have a tube of high-quality Arctic Silver left over from the
original build; when I switch heatsinks, is it a good idea to re-apply
the thermal paste? The CPU still has some old stuff kind of smudged
around it and I admit I don't know whether I should be adding more or
leaving it alone.

Thanks for any and all info!

Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 12 Aug 2005 14:05 PDT
eller...

I'm very happy to hear of your success. The cooling setup you've
described seems like it may help reduce the CPU temperature, but
I have no personal experience with it. The heat sink got generally
good reviews, and I would never have any concerns using an Antec
fan, but...

The things that would concern me are:

How hard will it be to clean the Swiftech heatsink when it gets
dusty? It looks like it will collect quite a bit, and might be
difficult to clean thoroughly. If reducing the temperature is
a primary concern, I would overlook this.

The speed of the 92mm Antec fan is rated at 1450 - 2070RPM.
While this is fine for a case or PSU fan, it's less than 
half the speed of a normal CPU fan. While it may still work
to reduce the CPU temp when used in conjunction with the 
larger heatsink, I would hesitate to use it, myself. I'd
use a faster fan, such as the Vantec Tornado 92mm. While
it's going to make more noise, it's rated at 4800RPM, and
produces a much higher rate of airflow: 
http://www.techreviewer.com/viewpage.cfm/ui/040229214155


As for residual thermal paste, it's best to clean the
residue and re-apply a new batch. The best way to clean
the residue is to use the specialized ArtiClean 2-step
system which removes the residue and prepares the surface
for a new application. The relatively poor results you 
can expect from using alcohol or acetone are discussed
here, as well:
http://www.arcticsilver.com/arcticlean.htm


That should make for a very cool system, in more ways
than one!

sublime1-ga
eller-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $5.00
Fantastic -- exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Comments  
Subject: Re: CPU overheating -- PSU issue?
From: zodiacman-ga on 09 Aug 2005 16:04 PDT
 
Hi there... a couple of ideas come to mind.... 1st) the 'thermal
sensor' device that tracks actual temperature inside case might have
gone bad and be giving a wrong signal to u-processor... if this sensor
is a discrete device, perhaps you can try locating an identical one
and replacing it, and seeing if you get the same response.   2) you
might try pulling off the case and using a portable vacuum cleaner in
the 'blower' mode w/power nozzle & carefully blow out any
dust-bunnies... in bad cases, the dust-bunnies can build up and
restrict air flow which would raise internal temperatures....3) You
might try using a 1/4" drill bit and drilling numerous extra vent
holes along the bottom 1/3 of case all the way around to let more cool
air in...
Subject: Re: CPU overheating -- PSU issue?
From: sublime1-ga on 12 Aug 2005 20:04 PDT
 
eller...

Thanks very much for the rating and the tip!

sublime1-ga

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