What does it mean when a toddler names all frog hovels? Is there any
historical link between a frog and the name "hovel"?

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Request for Question Clarification by tutuzdad-ga on 10 Aug 2005 13:44 PDT

I've had lots of little people in my life over the years - some spoke
mostly english and some made up their own unique language.

I think the child is saying "hoppers".

tutuzdad-ga

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Clarification of Question by scott8451-ga on 10 Aug 2005 16:33 PDT

The word "hovel" was one of my kid's first words. She has been
obsessed with frogs   since before she could talk and still is at 2
years. She still calls frogs "hovels" and refuses to use the word
"frog".

By historical link, I was exploring the idea of pre-birth memory,
reincarnation or communication with a spirit (not that these ideas
were previously included in my belief system). I have googled "hovel"
and "frog" and the two words are included together in certain stories.
Per my recollection, the words were included together in "The Brothers
Grimm".

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Request for Question Clarification by tutuzdad-ga on 10 Aug 2005 17:48 PDT

Sorry, I speak "child" fluently but I can't help you with
reincarnation or communication with a spirits. That's outta my league.
Hopefully someone else will have some insight into that.

tutuzdad-ga

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Request for Question Clarification by justaskscott-ga on 11 Aug 2005 09:00 PDT

Perhaps your child is trying to say the Slavic word "zaba" or "zhaba":

"A Frog in Any Language..."
Frogland
http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/international/internt.html

If this explanation is sufficient, please let me know so that I may
post it as an answer.

It means your toddler will get confused when reading Kipling's "The Holy War".

All humans no matter what age speak and act from 'association' that
come from our sub-conscious mind. Toddlers, however, make up their own
rules as to what they name things.

One theory for your child's behaviour could be that your toddler has
heard the word 'hovel', and decided that they like this word. They
also possibly like frogs, and have made the association that the word
and the creature are both 'nice' and has therefore put the two
together in their mind.

As a small child on long car journeys at night I loved to look at
whole towns' street lights twinkling like stars. I called the lights
'Monkeys'. No logic whatsoever it seemed, but there is always a reason
for these things. Somehow I'd made the association and it stuck. When
I was four, I was told to get out of this habit as it was now silly!

If there were historical links between frogs and hovels, I doubt a
toddler would know about this, unless you believe they were
reincarnated.

Have you asked the child "Why do you call the frog 'hovel'?" You might
get an entertaining explanation.

My younger brother always called potatoes "papers." We were puzzled by
this. One day I asked him outright, and my brother said that he was
just shortening the phrase "paper tatoes." A bit of further
questioning revealed that "paper tatoes" was what he thought was being
said in the phrase "baked potatoes."

The word "hovel" was one of my kid's first words. She has been
obsessed with frogs   since before she could talk and still is at 2
years. She still calls frogs "hovels" and refuses to use the word
"frog".

By historical link, I was exploring the idea of pre-birth memory,
reincarnation or communication with a spirit (not that these ideas
were previously included in my belief system). I have googled "hovel"
and "frog" and the two words are included together in certain stories.
Per my recollection, the words were included together in "The Brothers
Grimm".

I am a firm believer in the maxim "When you hear hoofbeats, think
horses, not unicorns." Which is more likely, that a toddler has
created a nonsense word for a favorite animal, or that the word's
source is pre-birth memory, reincarnation or communication with a
spirit? I don't mean to be rude, but why seek an elaborate explanation
when a simple one is available?

I am sure you are right. However, it would be interesting if a word
sounding like "hovel" in a foreign or ancient language referred to a
frog or similar creature.

What WAS the name of the prince in the fairy tale?
Despite Pinky's appropriate maxim, maybe she does have a reason to
call them  - or just try to find one that answers to -  "Hovel."  ;-)
But I doubt it.

Rather than looking to other languages which your daughter is not
likely to have heard, I wonder if the child's word "hovel" might be an
alteration of "humble." "Humble frog" is a phrase that is commonly
used in fairy tales and elsewhere. As I recall, the phrase occurred
several times on The Muppet Show in describing Kermit.

://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22humble+frog%22

Or, harking back to Tutuzdad's first idea and Pinky's brother's
"paper", maybe she  recalls someone's first saying "hop" or "hopping"
about frogs, before she understood much English.
Though something that has intrigued me, is that I understand that
toddlers are slower to pronounce frigatives (f, v, th):  papa before
father, and so on.
I may be corrected.

"Hoppel" is a common name for children's pet rabbits in Germany.

"Hovel" was her first or one of her first words. I can't remember when
she first spoke the word. I think it was around 9 months. Per my
recollection, she did not have a problem with the (v) sound.

It is interesting that "Hoppel" is a common name for pet rabbits in
Germany. My wife is of German ancestry. I believe her mother, who died
young, was born there.

Scot,
Your question is slowly sliding down out of sight here.  I think her
"hovel" is very delightful and charming (with a little wonder at the
ever present frogs).
I wonder how she would respond to the fairytale about the princess
kissing the frog.
As a parent who didn't, I suggest that you make a diary of her first
funny expressions  (immediately on a pad in the kitchen, or you will
forget).

And if you need a picture of a real hovel:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2005/07/27/phovel27.xml

Myoarin

Toddlers often replicate a word using sounds completely unrelated to
the original word.  I've heard the following:

lolly pop = woppy pop  Notice that one L is replaced with a W, while
the other two L?s come out as P?s?  Why wasn?t it poppy pop or wowwy
pop? There is no rhyme or reason for such conversions.
 
thank you = gansu
granddad = grammer

If you review the words you use when speaking about frogs in front of
your daughter and allow the possibility of a very loose translation,
you may figure it out.  Is she pointing to the frog and trying to say,
?Have it or hold it??  "Hobble or wobble"?  The context, in which she
uses the word, is your biggest clue.

The meaning of the word ?gansu? would have remained one of the great
mysteries, if not for the fact it was routinely used where a ?thank
you? was in order.
 
Please report back if you ever solve this mystery!

One other thing.  Most here are probably trying to compare hovel to
words as they are pronounced in "main stream American English".  If
your accent is other than "main stream American", our efforts would be
in vain!

My accent is "mainstream american". My wife sometimes uses certain
Yiddish words and phrases. However, she has a midwestern accent. She
had not heard of the name "hoppel" as referenced by myoarin-ga.

I have asked my daughter why she calls frogs "hovels". I don't know if
she understands the question. She just smiles and seems to want to
talk about something else.

Scott,
Take it from me (daughter 28 yrs), girls will respond like that when
Dad asks anything about something they love.  Just wait.  :)