I have been dating my girlfriend for about a year and a half. Our
relationship really couldn't be better. We get a long great, we share
everything. Sex is great, we give each other plenty of room for
hobbies and work. Neither of us is the jealous type; I've gone out on
dinner dates with old female friends (some she knows, some her
friends, some she doesn't know) and she's gone out with dates with guy
friends (ditto). I don't think there has ever been any question in
either of our minds that the other person is less than 100% faithful
to the other. We both consider each other _so lucky_ to be with
someone like this, to be in a relationship where everything is just so
effortless. We've met each other's families, we are planning on
getting engaged at some point, we love each others' friends, they all
love us - I honestly think that we are one of those couples that other
unhappy couples look on with envy.

However - there has been one problem, all related to the same person.
Let's call him Jeff. My gf is a language instructor. At a language
camp last summer, Jeff was in my gf's class, and by all accounts had a
serious crush on her. At one point at a karaoke room, she had one
drink and fell asleep on this guy's shoulder (he did what I certainly
would have done and had manuevered himself next to her). This isn't a
problem; she can't drink that much and in fact even before we started
dating I had seen her fall asleep on the shoulder of the person next
to her, male or female. The problem of course is that the guy
apparently took this to mean a lot more than it probably did, to the
point where a week or so later there was almost a fight between Jeff
and other students at the camp, who thought he was trying to get in
her pants.

My gf actually tells me all this, saying she felt bad about causing
such a problem for him. I didn't really think much of it. Turns out
that Jeff lives in the same city as we do, and they actually take the
same airplane (which was overseas) back to the states. At a dinner
with friends a few days after she returns, she mentions that the guy
had taken it upon himself to change their seat reservations over the
phone so they would be seated next to each other. Needless to say this
is met with astonishment around the table that she, an instructor,
didn't tell this student off. She seems quite surprised that we all
thought the kid (Jeff is 21, she's 28) was stepping way out of bounds.
I was of course a bit surprised, but again, didn't think much about
it.

Anyway - for about three weeks after she came back to the US, she was
definitely different. A bit distant. I put it down to us being apart
for over two months (and we had only been dating for a few months
before that). She had a few faculty-related functions that she
attended alone, no more or less than usual. One time that did stick in
my mind even at the time, she came back with a particular smell that I
have noticed sometimes after heavy physical activity, or sex. Not
every time, mind you, and not only after physical activity (I've
sometimes noticed it on particularly hot days - but this was in the
fall). Again, I didn't think much of it. I heard that Jeff had gone
back overseas to study, so I didn't give it much thought.

A month or so later, however, while I was using my computer - we had
just moved in together and were using the same PC - I noticed a bubble
box at the bottom of the screen saying 'hey baby, you there'. It was
MS Messenger, which I had never used. My gf obviously had, and hadn't
logged off. I double click it. Suffice it to say that I was a bit
miffed that anyone would be calling my gf ?baby?. Just the day before,
she had accidentally forwarded an email to another friend of hers (and
eventually got back to me) that she had sent to some guy, but she
hadn?t deleted the entire mail. The email is relatively innocent,
except it says ?I miss you? and is signed ?love?. One or the other, I
probably could have ignored, but now I?m getting a bit concerned. So I
ask her about it.

This, she says, is not the guy who had caused the problems at camp, or
the guy who had changed the airplane seats. It?s an older guy, who she
had known for years. Hmm, well, I don?t know about ?baby? and ?love?,
and say so; she says it?s a generation thing (I?m 36). Well, I don?t
know about that either, but she has told me about everything else ?
guys she?s having problems with hitting on her, etc. So I trust her.

But some things aren?t adding up. When the subject comes up, she keeps
getting the story wrong ?completely unlike her. She uses the wrong
name ? twice. Again, completely unlike her. She gets his age wrong,
then forgets where he?s from. I?m still ignoring it, but I?m seeing
some warning signs.

Then, I get a phone call. It?s from the guy?s mother. Turns out, she
had gone to pick up Jeff at the airport, and had met my gf, and my gf
had actually used her phone to call me to say she had arrived. One of
her friends was interested in learning the language my gf teaches,
realized she had my number on her phone, and was hoping she could get
in touch with my gf that way. I was able to figure out that Jeff and
?hey baby/I miss you/love? dude were in fact ?one and the same
person-. The mother of course had no idea that her son was in direct
contact with the teacher, or no doubt she would have simply contacted
him.

So ? a first. I?ve caught my gf in a lie. 

I tell her that I love her completely and unconditionally ? except
that I need honesty. She admits that she didn?t tell the truth
because, she says, she was worried about making me mad. She said that
the reaction when she told people about him changing the plane seats
made her hesitant to tell the truth. She says he?s just a friend, and
he?s just being friendly. She swears they only met a few times, always
with others.

To make a long story short, it took me over five months to get her to
admit (because she again kept changing parts of her story) that they
had met quite a bit over the three weeks after returning to the city,
just the two of them. She swears that nothing happened them the two of
them talking ? she says that it started out with him asking her about
problems with his (now former) girlfriend. She said that he was easy
to talk to and a great listener.

Then, she went back to her home country (she?s not from the US) this
past summer. I joined her midway through, and came back by myself
because I couldn?t take that much time off work. She was in the same
country where I knew Jeff was studying, but the cities were pretty far
away, and I knew my gf didn?t have time to go to where he was, so I
wasn?t really worried. So imagine my surprise when I get an email from
a mutual friend who mentions my gf with this guy named Jeff at her
house, with her mom and sisters, only three days after I left!

I was floored. I had officially met the family for the first time, was
introduced as her boyfriend (and her sisters know we?re all but
engaged) ? and a day or two after I left she had gotten in touch with
Jeff, he had come down to see her (and spent the night, it appears,
because as far as I can figure out she wasn?t either at her mom?s
house or dad?s house, but I can?t confirm directly) ? and never even
told me. This made me upset, because I had told her how much honesty
meant to me, and that she could tell me she had an affair, and I would
be fine with it if she was honest about it, but hiding stuff from me
would upset me.

Jeff came back from his year abroad a couple of weeks ago. They?ve
been calling and emailing just about every day. To her credit, she?s
been telling me that they?ve talked, and they had dinner last week
alone, which I was completely fine with because she told me about it
beforehand. I personally think it?s a bit weird for a guy to be
calling a girl who has a boyfriend every day, but I also don?t? want
to treat my gf like a child.

Then, we get to the part that floors me: Last night, I?m preparing to
upgrade my computer and reinstall WinXP, etc, so I?m going through my
computer with a finetooth comb to figure out if there?s anything I
should be backing up. And I find a massive MS Messenger file that has
almost a year?s worth of conversation between my gf and Jeff.
A couple of things pop out at me. 1) I am almost never mentioned. He
never asks about me. She never mentions me. A concert we went to
together? She went to it. I got her violin lessons for her birthday?
She?s taking violin lessons, loves it ? no mention who got her the
lessons or the violin. She had dinner last night at a nice Italian
place. No mention of who she went with.
Other things ? she says ?she thinks about him all the time, and misses
him. She?s depressed that she can?t see him. Hmmm.

She tells him that I found out about them meeting at her parent?s
place. And it?s about the only time my name comes up: she says that
she feels bad, because she didn?t want to make me upset, and she?s
sorry for making trouble for him (he was in the middle of exams or
something). She says that maybe I don?t trust her, and she can?t spend
the rest of her life with someone who can?t trust her, and she knows I
feel the same way.

I don?t tell her I?ve come across all this. Part of me thinks it?s a
private conversation. There?s no obvious smoking gun, except it?s
clear that he?s more than ?just a friend?, and they?ve done a whole
lot more talking than just ?every once in a while?. He obviously still
has the major hots for her, and she admits that she likes him ? but
the context is a bit unclear. She says that she hopes he cooks for her
sometimes, and she says the way he talks is ?sexy?. Is she just being
silly? Is it just an offhand comment? It seems a bit out of character
for her to sound like she?s flirting with someone like that ? but
maybe I?m just being oversensitive?

When we?re together, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she
loves me. And I have no doubt that she knows I worship the ground she
walks on. Jeff has been the only cause of trouble for us. I would
swear on a stack of bibles that Jeff is the only thing in our
relationship that she hasn?t been completely honest about. But now,
when she goes out, I find myself wondering ? is she with Jeff? He
recently called her to tell her he had an apartment ? not too far from
where she works, even though he?s going to school quite a ways away ?
and he?ll be living alone.
She?s been telling me about his phone calls, and that they will be
meeting ? but the messenger conversations suggest the relationship
isn?t quite as platonic as she makes it out to be. And I still have my
doubts as to why a guy would be putting this much effort into talking
to and meeting with a girl with a very steady boyfriend if he wasn?t
getting something out of the relationship ? and no, I don?t trust any
22 year old boy enough to think he?s only in it for the good
conversation. She?s said that she wants me to meet Jeff, and that we?d
be able to be friends ? but she?s never really made it work. They
always, by sheer coincidence, seem to meet when I already have plans.

Do I let her keep meeting him as long as she?s honest with me about
meeting him? Should I be worried? If not, how do I stop myself from
thinking about it? Do I tell her that she can?t be his friend and my
boyfriend at the same time? Can I honestly, in good faith, tell her
who she can and can?t be friends with? I?d hate for her to do that to
me ? but then I?ve only been nothing but completely honest with her.
It?s driving me crazy, and I?ve never been the jealous type; I
honestly don?t know what to do. I can't imagine why I should be
jealous when she's been introducing me to her family members and
friends, and when we've been talking about where we'd like to get
married or go on our honeymoon...but I feel like I can't get over the
fact that she's been dishonest with me.

---

Clarification of Question by dragonash2005-ga on 22 Aug 2005 14:35 PDT

A couple of points I forgot to add:

-I am obviously a bit older than her, and am married with a kid (who
is with the mother, who lives far away and is not really in the
picture at all). My gf has been fine with this but has said she's
worried about my child being hurt at somepoint that his dad has a new
'mom-type person'. Understandable, I guess - and she says that her
discussions early on with Jeff were about my child and her concerns.

-the MS Messenger cache at one point noted that 'the three weeks she
had spent with Jeff after coming back from overseas (last year) were
the best three weeks that anyone could ever have spent'

-Whenever I try to discuss this issue with her, she says that she
loves me, and wants to spend the rest of her life with me, and that
there is nothing I need to worry about, and can't I see how much she
loves me?

-She denies (to me) liking him, she denies that anything happened last
year (when they spent all that time together for three weeks). She
says that he is just someone she likes being with because he's easy to
talk to.

-Talking with her about Jeff ultimately makes us both miserable, so
we'll go weeks without talking about it. Other than Jeff, we've never
even had so much as a minor disagreement.

-If I hadn't found the messenger cache, I wouldn't be worried at all.
Maybe ignorance really is bliss...

---

Clarification of Question by dragonash2005-ga on 22 Aug 2005 14:36 PDT

Sorry - that should say I'm _divorced_ (for about 2 and a half years),
with a child, obviously from the previous marriage (was married for
six years).

Dear dragonash2005-ga;

What you are clearly asking for is our OPINION since there?s no real
answer to your dilemma. I?ll be glad to offer you mine:

Let?s review: 

She did something she knew was deceptive and against your will. She
then misled you and was deceptive about it once you caught on. She
flat-out lied about her actions and tried to make out as if it were
you who was in the wrong and had a lack of understanding (a
generational thing that you aren?t able to comprehend).

She says Jeff is ?easy to talk to? and that he?s ?a great listener? ?
major red flag

You made your value of honesty perfectly clear and yet she
intentionally betrayed that in spite of your openness of how much it
meant to your relationship.

I find your statement here perplexing:

?I personally think it?s a bit weird for a guy to be calling a girl
who has a boyfriend every day, but I also don?t? want to treat my gf
like a child.?

I don?t. 

Your ?girlfriend? is acting childish but you don?t want to treat her
like a child. She has given you every reason to question her integrity
yet you insist on being more permissive. You wonder how a guy (which
she admittedly feels so comfortable being with and confiding in) would
call on a girl who has a ?boyfriend?. Dude, in my opinion, HE is her
boyfriend too. Is it really that unclear? My guess is that YOU are
probably NOT her ?boyfriend? in HIS mind, but YOU are merely an
obstacle (she never mentions you and he never asks about you) . It
would seem, on it?s face at least, that she may feel the same way (why
would she be honest about this too when she found it so easy to lie
about everything else). The fact remains that she encourage, or at
least welcomes, his advances which she KNOWS FOR A FACT are totally
against your will and undisputedly outside the parameters of trust
that the two of you have agreed upon for your relationship (in view of
her previous lies about Jeff).

?she says ?she thinks about him all the time, and misses him. She?s
depressed that she can?t see him.?

I?m not trying to belittle you or suggestion that you are less than
intelligent because I know how love clouds the mind. But, c?mon big
fella; you need to wake up because as hard as this is to swallow, in
my opinion you?re being had.

?She says that maybe I don?t trust her, and she can?t spend the rest
of her life with someone who can?t trust her, and she knows I feel the
same way.?

She KNOWS you don?t trust her and she KNOWS you don?t want to be with
someone you can?t trust. It kinda makes one wonder if she?s not trying
to help you dump her by continuing to give you reason after reason to
not trust her, doesn?t it? See what I mean? I don?t think she ?feels
bad? because she doesn?t ?want to make you upset?, she feels bad
because she KNOWS it makes you upset and she KNOWS that isn?t right ?
but she still does it, doesn?t she?

I find it odd that you think it ?might? be ok that she doesn?t tel you
all these little details about her relationship with this guy but that
she obviously tells him all the little details of her relationship
with YOU (if you?re not aware, intimate talk is what ?easy to talk to?
and ?a good listener? often represent). You?re not seeing the two of
them discuss YOU because he probably already knows more than he cares
to know already.

>>>Do I let her keep meeting him as long as she?s honest with me about
meeting him?
You may not have a choice anymore.

>>>Should I be worried? 
You bet.

>>>Do I tell her that she can?t be his friend and my boyfriend at the same time? 
Yes, you can, but you risk losing her if you do. 


>>>Can I honestly, in good faith, tell her who she can and can?t be friends with? 
You know what ? you can (sort of). In a mature relationship everyone
knows what the rules are. You should be able to tell a girlfriend if
she?s crossed the line of what is comfortable to you, and if she is
mature enough she will appreciate how much it means to you.

>>>I honestly don?t know what to do. I can't imagine why I should be
jealous when she's been introducing me to her family members and
friends, and when we've been talking about where we'd like to get
married or go on our honeymoon...but I feel like I can't get over the
fact that she's been dishonest with me.

Look, she says she likes the guy, she?s attracted to him, she enjoys
being with him and he ?talks sexy? to her. She talks privately and
inappropriately with him in a way that she should obviously understand
is not acceptable given her relationship with you. Then, to make
matters worse, she lies about it (more than once) and accuses YOU of
being the one who doesn?t understand.

You have a serious communication and maturity problem in your
relationship ? and YOU are not merely an innocent party here (you are
enabling this to some extent). You need to do what you know you need
to do ? gently confront her, intelligently set some limits, come to a
complete mutual understanding of what is expected of both of you and
define the repercussions in the event that one, or both of you,
crosses that line.

From what I gather your girlfriend is very immature. There?s no
guarantee that she?s being anymore honest with her friends and family
than she is with you. The fact that you are being introduced around
means very little because, when it boils down to it, you already know
for a fact that she?s CAPABLE of lying, so who?s to say she isn?t
lying to them too? You follow me?

My OPINION is that this young lady is not sure what she wants. She
doesn?t want to hurt ANYONE and yet she?s afraid to commit to anything
either. I get the impression that she?s wanting to be young and
carefree with her intimate male friend ? something that makes her feel
exciting, and youthful and comfortable; but she?s on the cusp being
committed and ?spoken for? with you ? which makes her feel unsure and
anxious. It almost seems as if she?s sabotaging her otherwise stable
relationship with you in order to carry on in this ?friendship? with
Jeff (note here that her relationship with Jeff is unaffected by YOU
but her relationship with YOU is seriously affected by Jeff ? do you
see any obvious red flags there?).

Sit down with her. Table it all and see how it adds up. Tell her you?d
rather her be honest and let you go that string you along. Yes, some
women have friendships with the opposite sex, but this is clearly not
one of those platonic cases. Brace yourself man, cause this is going
to burn?..She LOVES Jeff (as a friend, as a lover, whatever, - who
knows? The fact is, she probably LOVES him ? or really, really LIKES
the heck out of him; however you want to look at it). Sure, she
probably loves you too but this is a classic case of having cake and
eating it too.

I?m not a counselor but I?m a lot older than both of you and I?ve got
quite a bit of life experience under my belt. I?m sorry to say that
until you guys set the rules and mutually abide by them, NO, in my
opinion, you will not be able to trust her as much as she currently
enjoys being able to trust you. Furthermore, I think you are being
taken advantage of, perhaps even at your own undoing. I don?t think a
person on earth who knows what they?re talking about would disagree
with these observations for one second.
 
I hope you find that my answer exceeds your expectations. If you have
any questions about my research please post a clarification request
prior to rating the answer. Otherwise I welcome your rating and your
final comments and I look forward to working with you again in the
near future. Thank you for bringing your question to us.

Best regards;
Tutuzdad-ga ? Google Answers Researcher

---

Clarification of Answer by tutuzdad-ga on 22 Aug 2005 16:42 PDT

-I am obviously a bit older than her?.with a kid.?My gf has been fine
with this but has said she's worried about my child being hurt at some
point that his dad has a new
'mom-type person'. Understandable, I guess - and she says that her
discussions early on with Jeff were about my child and her concerns.

Sure. She wanted to pitch YOUR child?s welfare to her secret ?friend?
for advice. Did she tell you this BEFORE or AFTER she told you blatant
lies about meeting him secretly (multiple times) and speaking to him
intimately on the computer (multiple times)?

-the MS Messenger cache at one point noted that 'the three weeks she
had spent with Jeff after coming back from overseas (last year) were
the best three weeks that anyone could ever have spent'

What can I say about that? She tells you that she wants to marry you
but she spent three weeks with a guy who talks sexy to her and she
admits she really likes it. Doesn?t something about that set off an
alarm for you?

-Whenever I try to discuss this issue with her, she says that she
loves me, and wants to spend the rest of her life with me, and that
there is nothing I need to worry about, and can't I see how much she
loves me?

If I were you I?d think the simple answer is NO. I cannot see how much
she loves me for all the DISTRUST she has placed in our relationship.
FRIENDS don?t have secret, sexy chat and spend secret time together
and lie about it when one or both of them are in a committed
relationship. If they DO, they are not truly committed - Period.

-She denies (to me) liking him, she denies that anything happened last
year (when they spent all that time together for three weeks). She
says that he is just someone she likes being with because he's easy to
talk to.

She says she likes being with him, she likes the way he makes her
feel, she likes the way he talks to her, and she misses him terribly
when he?s not around. She longs for him company in his absence, goes
to great lengths to be with him and even lies about it to cover up for
it.  SHE LIKES HIM. (not only that, she?s lied AGAIN). I?m beginning
to get the impression is that she either thinks you are really slow,
or that she is really sly. At the very least she believes ? and
accurately so, apparently ? that she can dish out whatever she wants
and you will always take it. Again, I?m not trying to demean you in
any way, I?m just trying to be honest because I think that?s what you
expect from me. Having said that, which way do you describe yourself?
Needy or gullible? It appears that where this relationship is
concerned, you are either one or the other.

-Talking with her about Jeff ultimately makes us both miserable, so
we'll go weeks without talking about it. Other than Jeff, we've never
even had so much as a minor disagreement.

WHY does it make you both miserable? That in itself is a huge red
flag, dragon. Look man, if Jeff was just an innoocent friend like she
say s he is and wants you to believe that he is, she would defend him
AND herself. She would stand up for this legitimate relationship and
would not rest until you fully understood it, accepted it and
appreciated her right to pursue it. The fact is, I suspect, that the
relationship is NOT innocent, and she is NEVER going to be able to
explain it because it?s ?wrong?. The best approach (considering how
she?s blundered with names, and dates and places before) is to avoid
talking about it altogether.

Wich brings up another point I meant to mention earlier: The fact that
her erroneous details don?t pan ought to be a red flare on top of a
red flag. I?m not saying she lies to everyone but you know for a fact
that she lies to you. Typically people who lie a lot ? especially if
they are not good at it ? can?t remember which lie they?ve told and
bumble like you described. The truth is, this is at least symptomatic
that she may be lying to a lot of people about a lot of things,
including you.

-If I hadn't found the messenger cache, I wouldn't be worried at all.
Maybe ignorance really is bliss...

Yeah I suppose so. And if you hadn?t come here and met me you?d still
be wondering why a 22-year-old ?boy? (read: fully grown 22 year old
MAN) would be trying to court your girlfriend against her will (when
she only thought his innocent behavior was nothing more than ?cute?)

The truth hurts, but that?s my opinion of your situation in a nutshell.

Tutuzdad-ga

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Clarification of Answer by tutuzdad-ga on 22 Aug 2005 16:49 PDT

By the way - feel free to bookmark THIS chat between US and on her computer. 

Maybe SHE will discover a little secret chat that will rock HER world for a change.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by dragonash2005-ga on 22 Aug 2005 19:32 PDT

Tutuzdada-ga, and others who have commented - I thank you for your
comments. First, some clarification. I'm 37yrs old, divorced once,
been in a number of great relationships, some not so great - in other
words, I've been around the block a time or three. If there was
_anything_ that suggested to me a pattern of lies, I would have been
long gone, long ago. Seeing her and how she acts around me, her
friends, her family, my family - never changes. I see how she treats
her friends, how her friends treat her - the people she hangs out with
and who hang out with her are grade a, out-of-the-top drawer people.
In other words - she may be one of the most mature, sensible, caring,
kind person I have ever met, filled with concern for the well-being of
others. She treats her family and sisters like gold. She has a lot of
great friends, and I like them all. I've been around people who lie -
they don't have long-term friends, if they have any friends at all.

I recently gave my mom $5000 to buy a new car. My gf pitched in $2000
of _her own money_ no questions asked, not a loan. Money has _never_
been an issue. My gf is easily the lowest-maintenance gf I've ever had
or heard about. She spends less money that most _guys_ I know, let
alone girls. She gives freely of her time, money, and effort, to
friends, co-workers and family. She spent hours making a handmade gift
for my mom and sister.

Liking the attention from boys is, now that tutuzdad mentioned it, an
issue I've noticed. She's been treated poorly by men who she's
continued to treat 'nicely' even though they are obviously only
looking to get in her pants. When it becomes obvious that it won't
happen, they ignore her, and she feels hurt - 'like I don't have any
worth simply as a friend, only as a possible lay'. I've told her that
she should simply stop being nice to guys that are like that, but part
of her, I think, simply doesn't want to hurt anyone. And another part
of her (that she denies) simply likes the attention.

Still - this isn't a case of me having my head in the sand. I honestly
think we have something special. I've seen how she treats people, and
how she treats her, and I'm convinced that Jeff is the _only_ thing
that she has been less than honest about. Now, tutuzdad hit the nail
square on the head, I think, when he said that she is torn between
liking the attention of guys (very true) and maybe is a bit scared of
being so committed. She's never lived with anyone before - in fact,
she had never introduced any boyfriend to her parents before me, so
I'm well aware that this is a big step for her.

I will need to give this some more thought. I do know that, as special
as what we have is, I hate myself for thinking about it all the time,
and eat's eating me up from the inside. So I either have to a) decide
that I can live with her and Jeff meeting for some dirty talk every
now and then; the other 6.9 days out of the week that I get with her
are more than worth it, or b) decide that I can't live with that, and
make her choose him or me.

---

Clarification of Answer by tutuzdad-ga on 22 Aug 2005 19:52 PDT

You asked if I thought you could trust your girlfriend. I gave you the
most logical answer.

What it may boil down YOUR definition of "trust" is. If you view her
intimate conversations ("dirty talk") someting that you can live with
and do not view this as betrayal or dishonesty, then sure, you may be
able to trust her as far as your understanding of trust goes.

That does not negate the fact that she has (according to you) lied,
she has decieved you about her visits with Jeff, she has professed a
strong desire for him when he is absent (i.e. when she is with YOU
exclusively), and on and on...

If those things are ok with you, then you should not have a problem.
All you have to do now is schedule your time with her around good old
Jeff (who must have your best interest at heart also) and enjoy your
semi-interrupted and occassionally distracted time together. In all
fairness to common sense however you must remember that YOUR
definition of "trust" does not change the rest of the world's
definition of "denial".

Good luck

tutuzdad-ga

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Request for Answer Clarification by dragonash2005-ga on 23 Aug 2005 06:38 PDT

These have all been fascinating answers and comments. I now see how
hard it is to ensure people have a full understanding of the full
picture! It's hard to paint a detailed picture of a relationship with
just a few small brushes.

>What it may boil down YOUR definition of "trust" is. If you view her
>intimate conversations ("dirty talk") someting that you can live with

I should probably clarify this: There was no 'dirty talk' - I'd
definitely consider that a smoking gun. the 'sexy' bit came up when
Jeff, in one of the chat conversations, was using a particulary speech
pattern popular among young guys in the country of the language he's
learning. She said that he should keep using that way of talking,
because it made him sound like a 'young and sexy' guy. There are
chunks of their conversations that are clearly a young student being
tutored by a language teacher - my gf is an exceptional teacher (I
should note that she had her master's at 23 and is a full-time
language instructor at one of the top Ivy League colleges - that's why
she has the summers off for working at language camps abroad or going
back to her home town).

>>Talking with her about Jeff ultimately makes us both miserable, so
>WHY does it make you both miserable? 


Because no-one enjoys making someone they care about sad or unhappy.
Being told in so many ways 'I'm not sure I can trust you' isn't a
great thing to hear. Knowing that your boyfriend is unhappy with you
can't be a great feeling (her feelings for Jeff notwithstanding, I am
not at all denying that she loves me very much). And I hate bringing
it up because I know it makes us both sad, especially since we never
ever fight about anything else.

I should say that when we discuss it, it's not like she breaks down
into crying or screaming fits. She is calm and quiet, but we both hate
fighting, and we both quickly get depressed about it. We are always
able to eventually talk through it, hug, and feel better about things
in the end, but it's not a very fun hour or two.

> You were thinking of getting married to someone you
>have never seen when they are really angry at you?  Like you are never
>going to disagree? 

It's probably all but impossible to live with someone for 18 months -
and to travel with them extensively - we've had four or five small
(3-5 day) trips, and two long (14 day-plus) trips, and not have a
pretty good idea of what makes them tick. I've seen her angry on a
number of occasions - just never at _me_. And (except for the Jeff
thing) I've never been upset with her. I've seen how she handles
problems, in her family, at work, with co-workers, among friends, etc.
You can tell a lot about someone by looking at what they get mad at.
My gf just doesn't sweat the small stuff; and our lifestyles and
travel styles are so compatible that we literally have never even had
a minor quibble about stuff. She doesn't like watching sports, so when
I put the game on, she curls up on the couch next to me with a book. I
don't really care for watching sex and the city, so when she goes into
two-hour SNTC marathons, _I_ curl up next to her on the couch with a
book. I don't care for the flamenco show she's going to? I stay home,
or grab some beers at a nearby watering hole and wait for her, and we
go out together afterwards. She doesn't want to go to the rock concert
I got tickets for? I go with a (girl) friend of ours, she stays home,
or meets up with other friends. My guy friends are constantly amazed
at how unphased she is by stuff that they get in fights with all the
time about with their SOs.

Things have really come to a head the past week or so, because I've
been thinking about this Jeff thing so much, and she can tell. So we
end up talking about it, and I end up, every night, hammering away at
her to admit that she likes him, or at the very least, liked him, and
not just as a friend. We both know that we can't do this much longer.
It just isn't healthy.

So last night, we spent literally four hours going over it. I told her
I was uncomfortable with her relationship with Jeff. She admitted that
she felt very strange the last week or so telling me that he had
called, or they were going to meet, since she knew that she didn't
have any _other_ (straight) guy friends who called or talked to her
everyday. But she also said that she was working hard at telling me
everything even though she knew that it made me uncomfortable hearing
about it.

She said that she knew that deep down, I'd like to just tell her to
stop seeing him, but didn't want to because a) she knows I'd hate
telling my gf that they can't see someone; it seems like an obvious
sign that I don't trust her, and b) we both know that she simply won't
be told what to do by someone else.

She swears on a stack of bibles that she never liked him on any level
other than simply as a good friend who listened to her while she
talked about her concerns for my kid. We teetered to the edge of
breaking up countless times last night, I think - she was crying (and
she _never_ cries, no matter how tense or emotional an issue is) and
said that she felt horrible about not being truthful with me right
away, but that she can't change the past (true enough). And that if I
couldn't get over the fact that she lied to me, than maybe we should
break up, because she didn't want to keep making me unhappy, and
neither of us wanted to keep talking about this every night, because
it's exhausting.

I realized that indeed, I was letting the lies of a year ago bother
me. She's right, she can't change the past. She has apologized for it,
and as far as I can tell she's been truthful about their meetings and
conversations since Jeff came back to the States a week or so ago (in
all fairness, I should say that the more messenger conversations were
pretty innocent).

So, what matters is how we are going forward. I can either trust her,
or let it bother me and break up. I told her that Jeff still made me
uncomfortable. She said that he was someone that I would normally be
great friends with, and she asked if I would give him a chance. I'm
willing to give this a try - part of the problem may well be that Jeff
is such an unknown.

So, I agreed to give it one more try. I told her that we were wiping
the slate clean, starting over, so to speak. As far as I was
concerned, the Jeff incident of the past year never happened. I would
do my best to be a friend to Jeff, on the condition that a) he also
try, b) that she not meet him alone until I'm fully comfortable with
it, and c) the first sign of _anything_ that doesn't jive right, it's
over. Thankfully, our schedules are busy enough for the next few
months that she won't have much free time, so I won't need to worry
about that too much, with school starting up again and all (oh, and it
turns out his apartment is about 35 blocks from his school, and about
65 blocks from where we live and my gf works, not as close as I had
once thought).

So - we're giving it once more chance. Yes, I'm probably putting my
head in the sand about stuff that happened last year, but I can't
change that now. All I can worry about is the future. The first sign
of _anything_ I see that I feel is not quite right, or is
disrespectful of me and/or our relationship, I will end it.

Thank you, guys, for helping me verbalize some of this. You've made me
realize just how much I love her, but also that I'm not willing to
worry and suffer every day for anybody, no matter how much I love
someone.

---

Clarification of Answer by tutuzdad-ga on 23 Aug 2005 06:57 PDT

>>> There was no 'dirty talk' - I'd definitely consider that a smoking gun.

I can only go with what you tell me and the phrase ?dirty talk? was a
phrase YOU used first. We can?t read minds, you know. Then again, it
doesn?t matter what they were talking about or in what style they were
doing it, SHE LIED about it. What?s more, he?s engaging in PRIVATE and
INTIMATE conversation with YOUR GIRLFRIEND even though they BOTH know
that you disapprove of it.

Is that ok with you? If it is then you have no problem. If it isn?t
then you have trust issues. It?s a simple as that.

>>>Being told in so many ways 'I'm not sure I can trust you' isn't a
great thing to hear.

I agree, especially if it?s true.


>>>You were thinking of getting married to someone you have never seen
when they are really angry at you?  Like you are never going to
disagree?

You will notice that visitors to this site are also making COMMENTS at
the bottom of the page. These comments are not MINE and I cannot
clarify what they mean. Everything I say to you I will post in this
upper portion of the screen. What?s posted below is stuff that I
cannot address.

>>> She said that he was someone that I would normally be great
friends with, and she asked if I would give him a chance. I'm willing
to give this a try - part of the problem may well be that Jeff is such
an unknown?. I agreed to give it one more try. I told her that we were
wiping the slate clean, starting over, so to speak. As far as I was
concerned, the Jeff incident of the past year never happened.

Ok. Then your problem is resolved. Go meet Jeff; see if you like him
and if you do let him continue meeting your girlfriend. If that works
for you its certainly ok with me. At the very least I admire your
ability to forgive and your willingness to embrace a potential
adversary as a friend.

Looks like we're done here, so I wish you much luck.

Tutuzdad-ga

Cheap at the price; I probably would have paid a shrink five times as
much to get to the same answer (as it were). No guarantees that our
relationship will work, but I'm willing to put some more effort into
it first.

Good analysis Tutuzdad-ga.

If you confront her with the evidence she is going to say you are
spying on her.  She is going to get all defensive and try to blame
you.  She is not being forthcoming; she is hiding things as much as
possible.

Think about what you want from this relationship.  It is clear you
don't want to have an intimate shared relationship. (don't blame you,
most people don't)  If that is the case you need to get out of this
relationship, because she isn't going to.  She has encoraged Jeff to
make it as easy for her to cheat on you.  (Don't fall for the BS line
that she can't stop him; she is encouraging him.)  He now has an
apartment within easy afternoon delight range and he wouldn't have
made such a commitment to get an apartment that is incovienient to
school etc. if he wanted to just talk.  I would find it hard to
believe that they are not mutually consenting adults and you are the
only one who doesn't know.  Its not your fault.  Get out of this
relationship before you get hurt further.  (She has no conciose, she
is taking advantage of you; she is not giving up Jeff.  if you love
her make it easy, dump her so she can be with Jeff and not worry about
hurting you.  If you don't you will be dumped and the "evil" villian.
(which you are not)

Have I missed something here or have you already had a little chat
with Jeff? For heaven's sake, man, ring him up and say, "Jeff, I think
it's time we had a little chat!" No, I'm not suggesting a duel or a
fight or anything nasty, just a bit of testicular fortitude from
someone who's been reasonable to the point of delusion.

Find out what is happening. Your gf sounds like she's either tangling
herself up in a remarkably unimaginative web of lies and/or she's
being manipulated by a 22 yr old man and/or she's playing you for a
bit of a twit by leaving so many 'clues'. For crying out loud, how
'reasonable' and 'adult' does she expect you to be? Remember, we teach
people how to treat us. Sounds like you've effectively taught her that
she, Jeff and her family can treat you with a breathtaking lack of
respect. It's time to talk.

Wow!!!

All I can say in MHO..

Get the HELL OUT!!! 

Your "so-called" girlfriend is screwing around with Jeff and, at the
same time, using you to keep stable.

Sorry for the vent... but look back at your posts... they all tell the truth..

She is "using you"..and screwing Jeff...

Sorry...

Steph53

There is a bright side to all this, and that is that this problem is
coming up before marriage, rather than after, when there are legal
entanglements.

Reading your heartfelt and thoughtful description, it seems that you
have reason for your concern.  Certainly, if friendship is the glue
that holds a relationship together long after lust fades, a lack of
trust at this stage isn?t a very good foundation. (Although, this is a
cross-cultural relationship and different cultures sometimes have
astonishingly different views about where the line is between telling
a polite lie vs. a rude truth.)  But despite the negative, you also
seem to see some very positive aspects to this relationship as well.

I have some concerns about the suggestions as to how you should handle
this issue.  My major concern is that I don?t see strong evidence in
what you have written that you two, as a couple, have the skills that
you need to work through this problem on your own - assuming that the
problem can be worked through.  You note that every time you both talk
about ?Jeff?, you both feel badly afterwards.  If every attempt to
solve the trust issue turns ugly and leads to bitterness, ultimately
there will not be much to keep the relationship going.  Even scarier,
you say that except for the ?Jeff? issue, you have never even had a
disagreement.  You were thinking of getting married to someone you
have never seen when they are really angry at you?  Like you are never
going to disagree?  You have been married.  You know that it is easy
to get along when everything is perfect.  But, there are also going to
be times of fear and anger, and you, as a couple, need to have ways to
work through these times.  The other point about your experience with
your previous marriage (please do not view this as a criticism, it is
an observation) is that divorced people generally have a lot more
experience with couple interactions that didn?t work, rather than
couple interactions that worked well - otherwise most would still be
married.  I am not saying that negative experiences can?t be great
teachers.  One can learn a lot from experiences that didn't work, but
it is also nice to have a model of what works well.

It seems to me that if you see some potential future in this
relationship, you could consider seeing a marriage
counselor/priest/rabbi ? whatever is appropriate in your context. 
Sure, some of them aren?t very good at it, but those that have put
their training and experience together with some insight may be able
to help you, as a couple, build that toolbox that you need to work
through these kinds of issues.  If you can?t work through this trust
issue, and more important, if you are not able to create a model for
working through future conflicts, then your relationship probably
doesn?t have much future anyway.  Even if you end up not finding a way
through this, you may still get some help with skills that may serve
you better the next time around.  And, if you decide that it is worth
trying to work through this current issue, and you, as a couple, are
able to work through this, you have the potential of something
wonderful.

You have got a problem

- similar things have been posted here, and I approve of your wish to
'verbalize' your thoughts.

Sometimes it is wise to turn a blind eye, accidents happen, but if
someone is 'accident prone' it is wise to stay well away.

In your case - just get her out of your life
- she lies to you, and is manipulating you

Ditch the Bitch

I applaude Tutuzdad-ga's excellent analysis.  While at times barbed, I
know that the goal was simply to make the truth strike harder.  My
regret would be that  dragonash2005-ga seemed to get perhaps the wrong
message from everyone's good intentions.  I note his comment "I now
see how hard it is to ensure people have a full understanding of the
full picture", with the obvious translation being "everyone else isn't
seeing this the way I do, so they are wrong."

Unfortunatly, my own experiences have taught me that the tunes played
in these kinds of situations are shockingly simple and obvious.  I
think it is clear that she has had an "affair", and though perhaps she
has drawn back from that as a mistake, Jeff is not following along out
of good will and interest in conversation.  The ability to forgive is
one thing, and a beautiful thing at that, but if the trust is broken
even once, it is always a blot there that you will never forget. 
There is no such thing as a clean slate.

I hope that your relationship works out, if that is what you decide. 
If you are lucky, she will realize the terrible mistake that she made
and will not do it again.

I went through almost the same thing as dragon. My gf cheated , i let
it go, cheated again and i thought it was my mistake and it never
stopped, she kept giving me same lame excuses like "I dont know why i
did it, i love you but i want to date other people, i know i was
wrong". You are going back to her today, it will be good for some time
but this WILL happen again and again till you move out and find a
better mate. She wants everyone to give her all she wants without her
returning back anything, read commitment and faithfullness.She never
respected you and never will(i know this is harsh but more kinna
reflecting on what kind of person she is).
Dont be shocked if tommorow she tells you that she wants to date other
people but wants to be friends with you or comes back to you when her
new boyfriends dumps her. She is just using you as a doormat b/w bfs.
I am saying all this coz my experience is exactly the same as ur
experience except for me not being married. We CLEANED our slates 2-3
times for a fresh start and it always returned back to the same point.
I was weak just like you and it took me a long time to get out of
this, after losing a lot of self respect.  But it did make me a better
man. Look out there are lots of women who would respect ur honesty the
way it should be, its just a question of WHEN you start looking out.

Looks like this subject has been rather wrapped but I figured I would
throw in some observations...

Are we all sure "Jeff" isn't gay?  This is more just a random thought
but I dont remember reading any statement that outright said he
was(not).

Secondly blame is not all one sided here (this you probably wont want
to hear), you peeking through her messenger conversations (no matter
how you found them) and continuing through them isn't exactly
respectful of your partners privacy no?  From my point of view (as
unbiased as possible) I would see it as a breach of honesty and
respect.  Have you told her you have been reading them?

Directly to the point of the whole matter:  Jeff

I understand you have both sat down and talked about this, but
apparently with a little too much emotion involved because it doesn't
actually sound like you worked ANYTHING out.  I really liked the
solution of another person here "Get him on the phone"

I fully agree, if you love her so much then why all the hesistation? 
Get the situation over the most direct, honest and expedient manner! 
Ask her for his phone number and call him immediately, I dont care if
it is 1am, call him!  Tell him the truth too, I have been dating "such
and such and I love her very very dearly", apologise for the seemingly
insecure fashion in which you must speak to him and the probably
rather pointed and direct questioning he is going to receive but in
order for you to be comfortable in the relationship you are currently
in and to move on one way or another it is a necessary evil.

Think about the questions you intend to ask him, write them down,
present them to your girl and call.

Get it over with whichever way it goes and be happy again.

JKM

She's sooo lying to you. I wouldn't tollerate such things. I know
barely anybody who would.

I know this topic is sort of done but I just had to say something. 

The reason why your gf is so unphased by you seeing other girls, even
if it is just on a friendly basis, and all the other stuff that your
guy friends fight with their SOs about is because shes not in love
with you the way you think she is. Im a pretty understanding girl when
it comes to what my boyfriends do. I dont care if my boyfriend went to
a strip club for example, but if he were spending time with girls
alone I have to admit I would be jealous. I wouldnt tell them who they
could be friends with but I would be jealous. Its a little weird that
the two of you go on "dates" with others of the oppisite sex as you
say in the first paragraph of your question. If my boyfriend had a
dinner date with another girl, especially if her were someone I was
thinking about marrying, I would be really unhappy about that. No, id
be pissed. The only circumstance in which I would be ok with it is if
I were with someone I saw no future with and who I was only having a
semi-serious relationship with. I cant think of many girls who would
feel differently about that.

Its clear that most of the people on here think your girlfriend is
cheating on you but you seem to not want to hear that. Of course it
sucks, but cheating is a fact of life for many people. Someone said it
right earlier, theres no such thing as a clean slate. No matter how
you phrase it your always going to remember this and always wonder.
And if this Jeff remains in your lives and you do eventually marry
this girl, youll always wonder if there was something or will be
something and it spells out catastrophe.

Speaking of wondering, why wonder? I like the idea someone had of
calling Jeff. But rather than talking it out with him why dont you
just ask him straight out if theres something going on between them.
If there is he probably wants you out of the picture. So why not just
tell him that if there has been something going on between them you
wont stand in their way any longer. If he believes youre willing to
walk away he will tell you the truth. If theres been nothing he will
tell you that and then you know for sure and can move on with youre
life and your relationship if yhou choose to do so. Even if you dont
want to lie and say that youd be willing to walk away when maybe youre
not is it really a lie? If he tells you that there has been something
between them and she has been lying all this time do you want to stay
with her? I should hope you have more respect for yourself than that.
And if he tells you nothings happened then you dont have to worry
about going anywhere.

Its really as simple as one question and all your troubles will be
sorted - "Jeff, Are you and my gf more than friends? If so I'll walk
away and let you two be happy." Because you dont want to be with
someone who would cheat and lie to you for a year.

"jeff, are you my girlfriends boyfriend?"

I seriously think its time for you to move on. As a girl I can tell
you that for the most part we just arent that close with guys unless
we want something more with them, especially if we are truly in love
with someone else.

No mater what I hope you can sort this out and do whats best for you,
not for her, regardless of whether that means staying with her or not.
Good Luck

I'm on the other side of your situation, looking in.  I have a
"special" relationship with one of the human resources managers for my
company.  She doesn't live in my state.  In fact, she lives many
states a way, you could say she lives in a different world, as she is
married with children.  This all started when she visited my area on
business.  At a business social event, she made it patently clear that
she was interested in more than an hr/employee relationship. 
Everybody was dancing with everybody, but will say she reserved some
seductive dance moves for me.  I'm sure you can guess where it went
from there.  Needless to say we see each other everytime she is in
town.

Like your situation, she goes home to husband and kids and pretends
that nothing ever happened.  If you're okay with that, more power to
you.

You wrong Beach.  You know he gonna come after you when he find out. 
And THEN you get fired.  Where you live?  I'll be watching the news to
see if a cat gets cut up where you live.

I'm in New York.  Wouldn't even make the news here.
Hey, she's 6 feet tall, all legs, blonde.  Doesn't look wrong from
where I'm standing.

well sounds to me like she is covering something up! you said that
first she said she liked him then when you had another conversation
she said she didnt like him, isnt that true? she obviously does like
him otherwise why would she spend a whole three weeks with him? and
why would she be on the phone to him nearly everyday? I meen you dont
spend three weeks with a friend,(unless your on holiday) and you dont
ring them up everyday do you? when she spent three weeks with him how
long had they known each other?

She could be having an affair but how can you know unless you see it
for yourself?!?!
maybe you need to get a friend to follow her when she goes to see this
jeff and see what happens. But dont let her see your friend?
it might be a good idea, but then again it might not.
If she is having an affair do you really want to find out like that??
But if she has and she hasn't told you yet will she ever tell you?
Thats what you have got to ask yourself!
But what is a relationship without trust???
you obviously doubt trusting her when she goes to see this jeff, and
she has been having conversations behind your back about her not
wanting to be with someone that doesnt trust her! (talking about you
doubting her)
But why would she talk to another male about her problems? Women
normally talk to their best friend (Which is normally another female,
am i right?)
But you dont have to be stupid to think that something is happening,
but you would also be stupid to ignore it!
Maybe you should talk to jeff and ask him whats going on, but will he
tell you the truth?

well i think thats all i have got to say but if i was in your position
i would investigate before she starts to feel guilty and stops it!

                               Mel -x-

Tutuzdad'z phrase, "can't have your cake and eat it, too," should
actually read, "can't eat your cake and have it, too," because that's
a lot harder to pull off.

But here's a toast to Dragonash. He pulled it off.

He met an attractive independent woman, got in her pants, got her as a
live-in with no guarantees, trained her to respect his right to
opt-out on her interests, and yet found in her a mystery so absorbing
that he's completely gotten over his divorce and his kid.

I'd say he has certainly eaten his cake and had it, too. Jeff is
simply following in his footsteps. My country singer friend has a song
for this: "I kissed her on the lips and left her behind for you."

I have been in a similar relationship as yours, but not as extreme,
and I was on the other side.  Here's some of my insight.

Basically, if your girlfriend has not had an affair, she is going to
have one.  This is the type of affair that is started because one of
the partners is not getting their needs fulfilled.  I recommend a book
called, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage.  
Check out the excerpts at Amazon.com

The basic premise is that if one person's basic relationship needs are
not met, that person will automatically seek that need from someone
else.  This is how good marriages/relationships get destroyed, if
nothing is done about it.

It's obvious that you love her and it's obvious that she loves you. 
If after you checked out the book or even read it, she should want to
work things out with you and you will be a lot more confident.  If she
doesn't want to work things out with you at that point, then move on. 
Relationship skills are relationship skills.  If you improve yours and
she doesn't improve hers, then forget her.

hi, look ill admit that i'm a 13yr old girl and that i don't no much
about this stuff. but seriously can you live withyourself knowing that
your gf is/could be having and affair with someone? i think that you
both need to sit down and have a serious think about how much your
relationship means to her. i can tell that you really do love your gf.
but is the feeling mutual? i think that you really should express your
feelings on this topic to eachother nd i might even suggest that you
show your gf this question/answer thing. it might make her think about
what she could be losing. i'm not saying that your relationship can't
work i'm just saying that you should think about your other
options...if your gf does decide that she wants to be with you/not see
that guy then i think mabue a bit of councling could help. or mabye
this is something that you need to sort of on your own as gf-bf. hope
this helps,
from Desert_mang0

It' been a long time since this was posted. I am currious if
everything is ok now. I hope it is.
I disagree with all these people - fight for you woman! Even if she
likes/loves him, she likes/loves you better! Why she is with you if
that is not true? She is not merried to you or has kids. She does not
depend on you in any way, right?
My ex lost me after 8 years or relationship because he did not fight
for me when one verry aggressive guy showed up and won my love. Think
about it.

I too am interested to see how this is turning out. What is happening,
dragon? Please tell us.

I went through an excruciating break-up with my gf a few months back.

We can understand your situation it look quiet tricky and awsome; bad
but not worst...all the best