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Q: meaning of proverb/saying ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   9 Comments )
Question  
Subject: meaning of proverb/saying
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: antun-ga
List Price: $5.00
Posted: 25 Aug 2005 07:27 PDT
Expires: 24 Sep 2005 07:27 PDT
Question ID: 560258
I recall hearing a (oriental?) proverb that went something like this:
"He who knows does not talk, He who talks does not know". What is the
exact wording for this proverb (if one above is inaccurate)? To whom
is it attributed to? If you are able to, please elaborate on its meaning.
Answer  
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
Answered By: tutuzdad-ga on 25 Aug 2005 08:24 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
Dear antun-ga;

Thank you for allowing me to answer your interesting question. I
happen to know EXACTLY where the quote originated:

The quote you referred to, "He who knows does not talk, he who talks
does not know. . ." is a paraphrased version of a bit of wisdom from
one of the compilation of paradoxical poems found in the Tao Te Ching,
written by Lao Tzu, the ?Father of Taoism? in the fifth century BC.

Tao Te Ching means ?The Law (or Canon) of Virtue and it's Way?. It was
a philosophy that advocated that one 'abandon knowledge and discard
self'. Thus the poems, paradoxical as they may be, are most meaningful
perhaps to those who share this view. The quote is found in poem #56:

?Those who know do not talk. 
Those who talk do not know. 

Stop talking, 
meditate in silence, 
blunt your sharpness, 
release your worries, 
harmonize your inner light, 
and become one with the dust. 
Doing this is the called the dark and mysterious identity. 

Those who have achieved the mysterious identity 
can not be approached, and they can not be alienated. 
They can not be benefited nor harmed. 
They can not be made noble nor to suffer disgrace. 
This makes them the most noble of all under the heavens.?

TAO TE CHING
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/rel/tao/TaoTeChing.html

This poem is clearly reaffirming what was said in poem #5, which says in part:

??the more you talk of it, the less you comprehend. It is better not
to speak of things you do not understand.?

I think the underlying message here is that a person, in his silence,
?could? be assumed to be a wise person, unless he speaks and proves
himself otherwise.

I hope you find that my answer exceeds your expectations. If you have
any questions about my research please post a clarification request
prior to rating the answer. Otherwise I welcome your rating and your
final comments and I look forward to working with you again in the
near future. Thank you for bringing your question to us.

Best regards;
Tutuzdad-ga ? Google Answers Researcher



INFORMATION SOURCES
Lao Tzu: Father of Taoism
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/lao.html



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Tao Te Ching

Lao Tzu

Request for Answer Clarification by antun-ga on 25 Aug 2005 09:47 PDT
Thank You for the excellent and prompt response.

I DISAGREE with your conclusion of the underlying message: "...a
person, in his silence,?could? be assumed to be a wise person, unless
he speaks and proves
himself otherwise." I think that this is a LOGICAL conclusion, not a message.

I feel that the underlying messsage is that there are things that
CANNOT be expressed in words.

Your thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.

Again, Thank You for answering my question!

Clarification of Answer by tutuzdad-ga on 25 Aug 2005 10:09 PDT
You may be right. Where I said "I think", of course I meant, "in my
opinion". My earlier footnote "most meaningful perhaps to those who
share this view" could very well leave the door open to personal
interpretation that differs from one person to another.

At the very least the attribution is most assuredly established and
that (if I am guessing correctly) was probably the biggest concern. I
look forward to next time.

Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
antun-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars
The answer I received, was correct and prompt (my $5 question was
answered in couple of hours). I like the fact that I was interacting
with a live person. (I guess, it being GOOGLE, I expected to interact
with a computer and receive "automated" replys). I highly recomend
this service!

Comments  
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: dotone-ga on 25 Aug 2005 10:20 PDT
 
In response to:
I DISAGREE with your conclusion of the underlying message: "...a
person, in his silence,?could? be assumed to be a wise person, unless
he speaks and proves
himself otherwise." I think that this is a LOGICAL conclusion, not a message.

Logical, I couldn't say so..."Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps
silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue."

The underlying message..."Knowledge, if acquired, is not to be
shared...lest someone learn the truth and change."  An approach that
tries to eliminate the gift of humans to reason.
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: antun-ga on 25 Aug 2005 11:40 PDT
 
While the statement: "Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps
silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue" is true, that is not
what Lao Tzu was talking about (imho).
I believe he was implying that there was certain knowledge that could
not be transfered/learned by words, but only through personal
experience achived through meditation, and other mental/spiritual(?)
practices (what I believe Taoisam was all about).

Going back to the google reaserchers conclusion 
"...a person, in his silence,?could? be assumed to be a wise person, unless
he speaks and proves himself otherwise.",
he was wrong to include the phrase "...and proves himself otherwise",
because just the act of talking proves that one does not know. He
cannot prove anything by talking...
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: dotone-ga on 25 Aug 2005 13:20 PDT
 
"because just the act of talking proves that one does not know. He
cannot prove anything by talking..."

As if, by NOT talking, one can prove anything about anything...ahhh, a
path that encourages ignorance.  To become nothing reveales
everything...give me a break!
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: myoarin-ga on 25 Aug 2005 17:29 PDT
 
Part of the beauty of such sayings is that they are open to
interpretation, begging for consideration, which heightens their
effect.

My interpretation is:  
A fool shoots his mouth off  (like me around here sometimes), 
while a wise man holds his tongue.

And I see the second part in connection with other sayings that
suggest that one should not offer knowledge/teach until the other
person ask for one's opinion.
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: antun-ga on 26 Aug 2005 11:43 PDT
 
OK, let me put it this way than, this message/proverb was intended for
seekers of "higher wisdoms"/enlightment/etc. And the message is that
you cannot achive enligtment through verbal/written transfer of
knowledge, and if you come accross someone who tries to "tell" you the
path, than that person defenitly DOES NOT KNOW!! Why? Because "those
things" cannot be expressed in words!
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: stephenvakil-ga on 26 Aug 2005 13:55 PDT
 
I've always thought the message was close to the "Shooting off the
mouth" theory above, although a bit more general.  The person who
accepts the flow of his life is the person who knows understands life.
 Those who constantly talk, debate, argue, or speak out about things
resemble people who try to reason with a rabid grizzly bear rather
than accept its existence.
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: pinkfreud-ga on 26 Aug 2005 13:59 PDT
 
The saying reminds me of "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: myoarin-ga on 26 Aug 2005 16:46 PDT
 
And maybe the saying includes the thought that one can only learn by listening.
Subject: Re: meaning of proverb/saying
From: pugwashjw-ga on 27 Aug 2005 05:19 PDT
 
It is direct from the Bible. Proverbs 10;19 " In the abundance of
words there does not fail to be transgression, but the one keeping his
lips in check is acting discreetly".

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