Friends , Romans and Countrymen

I would like the following figures:

- Age of the Universe.
- Age of the Earth.
- Age since life began on earth.
- Age since Man/Woman/Homo sapiens/Humans fist appeared on Earth.

Now I would like these figures as considered from 3 viewpoints:

- Scientific Establishment (Astronomers, cosmologists,Palaeontologists,
biologists,geologists etc)
- Proponents of Intelligent Design.
- Creationists     

You see there are 12 figures in all.

A few clarifications for the researcher who is prepared to tackle this request.
 
Note I am distinguishing proponents of  Intelligent Design from
creationists. I am basing this on some articles I have read recently.
If this is NOT true please elaborate as part of the answer.

A range for any figure for any group is acceptable. However if the
range is very large I would like some elaboration. (e.g. If the age of
the Earth according to creationists is say 40000 years to 40 Million years I
would like an explanation as to the large uncertainty in the figure..
Hypothetical example)

Yours Truly 

DPRK007

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Request for Question Clarification by omnivorous-ga on 30 Aug 2005 06:58 PDT

DPRK007 --

There's a contemporary book that's a good source for the scientific
viewpoint.  But there are multiple types of creationist theories. 
Perhaps the most-quoted is Bishop James Ussher's 1650 calculations
that the Earth was created on Sunday October 23, 4004 BCE -- or almost
6,008 years ago. But Wikipedia points out that there are about a dozen
creationist theories, intelligent design among them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism

Also, "intelligent design" itself is not so much a theory, as a
reaction to Darwinist theory --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Design

Best regards,

Omnivorous-GA

---

Clarification of Question by dprk007-ga on 30 Aug 2005 16:29 PDT

Dear omnivorous-ga

Thank you for the question clarification.

First lets deal with the Creationists. You indicate that there are at least
12 Creationist theories. OK Then What I would like is to take three of them
(one can be Archbishops Ussher theory) and give me the values I have
asked for (Age of Universe,Age of Earth, etc) which these theories
would propose and a very general rationale as to where the figures
came from.

Now for the "Intelligent Designers". 
You say
>Also, "intelligent design" itself is not so much a theory, as a
>reaction to Darwinist theory --

However IT IS A THEORY WHICH IS CURRENTLY BEEN TAUGHT IN BIOLOGY
CLASS's IN US HIGH SCHOOLS .
This been so I find it astonishing that there would not be text books
which would propose/imply figures for the values I am suggesting. 
What I would like to suggest is that you use the "Intelligent Design"
textbooks  been used in various US schools to come up with the figures
I am seeking and again a brief rationale as to how the figures are
calculated.

I am assuming you will not have a problem with the figures suggested
by the Scientific Establishment.

Many Thanks

DPRK007

---

Clarification of Question by dprk007-ga on 01 Sep 2005 19:27 PDT

Dear omnivorous

I would still be interested in an "official" reply with respect to my
clarification.

HFSHAW has added an interesting comment which I have added another comment to.

DPRK007

I'm afraid I have to take odds with your premise that one can provide
a matrix of twelve ages that would characterize the positions of
mainstream science, intellegent design (ID) proponents, and
"creationsists" with respect to the ages of important events in
history of the universe.  The problem stems from the fact that there
are many "flavors" of "creationists", ranging from biblical
literalists who believe the history of universe is specified by the
language and timescale given in the Book of Genesis, to "old Earth"
creationists, who have no problem with the the timescale supported by
scientific investigations, or even with having evolution and natural
selection be the mechanisms by which a "creator" chose to do its work.

A second problem with your premise is that ID does not directly
address the question of time (i.e., the age of the Earth, the
timescale for the development of life as we see it now, etc.), and
thus this school of thought does not have an official position on the
questions you have asked.  One could be a young-Earth ID'er, an
"old-Earth" ID'er, an "old-universe, young-Earth ID'er" and so on.

A good taxonomy of the various positions in the creation-evolution
spectrum can be found at:
<http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/1593_the_creationevolution_continu_12_7_2000.asp>
 You might want to take a look at this.


That having been said, I can easily provide you with the
scientifically accepted answers to your questions as follows:

Age of the universe:  Between 11 and 20 billion years (Gy) with 95%
confidence.  Most likely age is 13+/-1.5 Gy.
<http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0301/0301012.pdf>
<http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0308/0308418.pdf>

Age of the Earth:  4.55+/-0.02 Gy
<http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth>

Time at which life first appeared on Earth: The oldest undisputed
fossils are of bacteria preserved in the Gunflint Formation of
Ontario, which is 1.9-2.0 Gy old.  There have been claims for older
fossils in rocks from western Australia (3.465 Gy old), and isotopic
and chemical evidence for life in rocks from Greenland (3.7-3.8 Gy
old), but these are controversial at best.  Most recent work has
tended to refute these claims.
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v434/n7030/full/434155a.html>
<http://www.uni-muenster.de/GeoPalaeontologie/Palaeo/Palbot/seite1.html>
<http://scienceweek.com/2005/sw050513-1.htm>

Homo sapiens arises:  About 100,000 years ago.
<http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_sap.htm>
<http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/o.html>
<http://www.roperld.com/Hominid.pdf>


In contrast, hardcore, young-Earth creationists believe that the
Earth, the universe, and everything was created between 6000 and
10,000 years ago.  Perhaps the most famous creationist chronology was
provided by Bishop Ussher (see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher-Lightfoot_Calendar>) in the 17th
century.  This chronology persists in some young-Earth creationists'
beliefs.

Age of the Universe:  The universe was created on the evening of
October 22, 4004 BC  (how one would know it was evening, seeing as how
the sun didn't exist yet, I'm not sure <g>  The sun and moon weren't
created until the fourth day, Genesis 1:14-19.)

Age of the Earth:  The Earth was also created sometime during the
night of Oct 22-23, 4004BC (Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created
the heavens and the earth....).

Time at which life first appeared on Earth:  Sometime between Oct
24-25 (the third day)  (Genesis 1:11 - And God said, Let the earth
sprout tender sprouts, the plant seeding seed, the fruit tree...etc.)

Homo sapiens arises:  Somtime between Oct 27-28, 4004BC (the sixth
day) (Genesis 1:27 - And God created the man in His own image....)

HFSHAW

You have added an interesting aspect to my question. From your comment
and that of the researcher , I think my matrix has simply increased to
at least
150 elements given the assertion there are multiple creationist theories.
I also find your assertion interesting that to proponents of
"Intelligent Design"  that they do not care about the time
measurements I have mentioned.

Again as I mentioned in my clarification "Intelligent Design" IS been
taught in schools as part of evolutionary biology. Therefore the 
conclusion I draw is that it would be as absurd for a textbook on
chemistry not to take an "official view" on the number of electrons in
the Carbon atom as it would be for any textbook on Origin of the Human
race not to take an "official view" on the age of Homo Sapiens or life
on our planet.

I am making an assumption that as "Intelligent Design" is now part of
the official curriculum of schools teaching biology , that there are
textbooks that expound the theory of "Intelligent Design" and within
these textbooks are estimates for the figures I have asked for. I have
asked the researcher to clarify this point. (I am not necessarily
disagreeing with your assertion that intelligent design proponents do
not have an official view on my age measurements. However if this is
the case I would like the ID community to spell it out.)

Regarding Archbishop Ussher , it may be easy to laugh at him. But he
did within the framework of his time and his own beliefs attempt to
come with measurements for ALL the figures I have asked for. Given
that he lived years before Darwinian Evolution and he could not have
dreamed of Carbon Dating and other tools of modern science, he used
the only resources available to him at the time I.e. the biblical
account starting with Adam and Eve and ending with Jesus Christ.

What I am curious about is what "Modern Day" creationists say about
this. Do they  all agree with Archbishop Ussher. Or Are they
suggesting another figure (10000 years 20000 years 100000 years for
the age of man?) And what is their rational for their figures.

Also regarding your comment about "Old Creationists".  From your
description they are no different from any mainstream Christian (e.g
Catholics, Anglicans etc) who accepts the standard theory of evolution
( and by extension theories regarding the formation of the earth and
universe)

Regards

DPRK007