Dear Sir/Madam,

I have been experimenting for some time on making a flame (burning
from oil) not flicker at all for an entire week straight, without a
single flicker.
I would like to know how to exactly set up the experiement so that a
flame will burn (from oil) and stay still an entire week long.

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Clarification of Question by rbarukh-ga on 30 Aug 2005 04:12 PDT

I have been experimenting a lot but have been unsuccessful each time.
I would like to know exactly how to setup such a system so that a
flame (burning on oil) is not able to flicker for a whole week long
(for a very long time). I would like to know the precise steps and
materials to use. I would like a very detailed response and all the
steps clearly outlined.

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Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 30 Aug 2005 06:32 PDT

rbarukh-ga,

What have you tried thus far?

What's the longest time you've achieved so far for a flicker-free flame?  

What do you think caused the flicker when it eventually happened?

I doubt anyone can really promise you a flicker-free flame for a week,
since there are too many variables to control to be able to guarantee
perfection.

However, knowing what your experience has been up to now will help in
exploring further possibilities.  Let us know as much as you can.

Thanks.

pafalafa-ga

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Clarification of Question by rbarukh-ga on 30 Aug 2005 07:20 PDT

Hi pafalafa-ga,

Thanks for your interest in helping.

I have tried various methods of trying to containin the flame inside
things such as a beaker with air holes at the bottom.
I have tried to build surrounds for the flame out of different
materials but have had no luck.

The longest time that I have acheied this for has only been hours. I
test the length of time by placing a motion sensor camera infront of
the flame ad thus the camera records when the flame flickers.

I think that the main cause of the flicker is minute drafts in the air
but I am not 100% sure.
Another problem is that even when there seems to be no draft, there is
times when the flame just jolts but with an extraburst of energy on
it's own causing itself to flicker. This may be solved by using a
different wick, although my knowledge is not very extensive in that
area.

I still think it is possible. I think that a motion sensor camera is
the best way to make sure that there are no flickers.

If you require any more information, I would be happy to assist you to
the best of my ability.

Kind Regards,
Reuven

Hello

Thank you for a "neat" question.

THE PROBLEM WITH FLAMES IS THAT THEY ARE CHAOTIC.

More specifically, the supply of oxygen leads to turbulent flow, which
will create a flicker even if you
eliminate all outside drafts (which of course is the right thing to start with).
You may have to give up more than just the 'open flame' .  Things like
gravity and wicks are also a source  of problems.

I want to give you a few quotes and references  to illustrate research
in this area and its (interesting) history.


Here is somewhat technical paper on Turbulent Combustion
http://neumann.dph.aber.ac.uk/research/turbshok/turbshok.html


Here is more popular description of flame process.
The metastable state of the flame (a  strong sensitivity to outside
disturbance leads to chaos) was used
as an (very) early amplifier:

 "This early form of audion, the flame receiver, was remarkably
sensitive to weak high-frequency oscillations"
http://earlyradiohistory.us/audi1907.htm

 The process described here can be used to measure the steadiness of
the flame: (see fig 2) As the flame flickers,
 it conductance is changing. That, (the current from a battery passing
through the flame) can be fed to an
 oscilloscope, (and/or) frequency analyzer to show high frequency
flicker, which is invisible to the eye and
 also to common video cameras.


Similar sensitivity to initial conditions and outside disturbances 
can illustrated in experiments with sound
affecting jets, where the stream of liquid breaks into droplets,
(These were the type I jets (or push) , different
from type 3 (push-pull) jets which are used in home printers).
http://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/service/cmr/02cmrsummer/inkjet202.pdf

Both theory and experiments are more simple and so jets can be used as
a model system for understanding flames.
http://www.stanford.edu/~pdelac/research/MyPublishedPapers/ICA2004.pdf




So, after you eliminate outside drafts, you must limit the rate of burning
so that you maintain laminar (non-turbulent) flow. One way is to use diffusion:
For example, if you give up gravity, you can get a very interesting 

'steady flame' (that is the search term) 

in the shape of a sphere. Here is a link ta o NASA article:
http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/combustion/sofball/sofball2_objectives.htm


Another way is to use a ready-made mixture and force feed it to the burner:
If a ready-made gaseous mixture is to be used for the production of a
steady flame, it may be forced through a tube and ignited at the end;
it is obvious that the velocity of efilux must be greater than the
initial rate of inflammation of the mixture, for otherwise the mixture
would fire back down the tube. If the velocity of effiux be
considerably greater than the rate of inflammation, the flame will be
separated from the end of the tube, and only appear as a flickering
crown where the velocity and inflammability of the issuing gas have
been diminished by admixture with air..
http://18.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FL/FLAME.htm

Another way (this one just theoretical) of using diffusion to limit
the rate of burning is described here:
http://www.sdsc.edu/GatherScatter/gsjan92/Flames.html

OK. If you do not want to move to the outer space with your
experiment, here are some  practical suggestions
to provide a steady supply of the components (fuel and oxygen)

 

The concept of making a premix of gas and air prior to combustion in
order to yield the necessary high temperature, non-luminous flame
belongs to Bunsen.
http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/chemistry/institutes/1992/Bunsen.html

The first Bunsen burners were used for spectroscopy, applied to the
identification of new chemical elements.


Here, on page 3, fig. 7.1 is the description of the burner

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-03142001-144036/unrestricted/11Chapter_7.pdf


Here are some more modern, more complex methods of stabilizing the
delivery of the mixture using

http://vip.cs.utsa.edu/flames/pubs/rotating/paper_rotating.html#rotexpset

circular porous plugs - there are some video recordings of experimens
compared with theories. Perhaps too complex?


Here are some sources of these instruments.
http://www.labdepotinc.com/Category_Details~id~73.aspx
http://www.labdepotinc.com/Product_Details~id~73~pid~12510.aspx


Use of a Benson burner does not guarantee a steady flame. Conditions
have to be adjusted carefully
so that flow remain laminar. Description of different regimes and
extensive references can be found here:

http://arrow.utias.utoronto.ca/~ogulder/Lipatnikov&Chomiak2005PECS.pdf

Also, standard lab burner is using gas, not oil. That is not relevant.
Solid or liquid fuel (parafin, oil,..)
is vaporised before it burns. Key concept is metered froved sypply of
both components.

Alternative method, which however requires low pressure (partial
vacuum), would be to build a Knudsen reactor:


http://lpas.epfl.ch/hetchem/chem_activity.html

  It is an interesting areas of research. I wish you luck - and
please, do ask of more is needed,

Hedgie

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Request for Answer Clarification by rbarukh-ga on 30 Aug 2005 18:29 PDT

Hedgie,

Thanks for your in-depth response.

Can you please state detailed instructions as asked in the origional
question of methods using oil to create the steady flame.

Also, how am I able not to use a wick if I would want the flame to burn off oil?

Can you please state the instructions clearly and I will test the methods.

Kind Regards,
Reuven

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Request for Answer Clarification by rbarukh-ga on 30 Aug 2005 18:52 PDT

Hi,

Sorry, I did not make myself clear in my previous clarification.

Please picture the following. A container with enough oil to last a
week with a wick on the top burning.

That is what I need the experiment to look like whilst having the
flame not flicker for a week.

Thanks again,
Reuven

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Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 30 Aug 2005 21:59 PDT

As I explained, the 'micro drafts' as you call them, external perturbation
 are not the only source of flicker.

  flame produced by setup you describe, by a wick floating in oil,
  in normal environment (normal atmosphere and gravity)
  is inherently unstable. 

   This is the mechanism of instability: when the oxygen at one tiny spot is 
   consumed, flame 'moves to another spot' which is richer in oxygen.
   Here, to the end, this mechanism is described in poetic terms as
'philosophy of flame'.
  http://www.bartleby.com/30/7.html


   Placing the whole setup in microgravity environment or near vacuum
   will affect this mechanism, but does not appear practical in this case.

  Use of the nozzle - to mix fuel with oxygen, or to 'atomize' the oil into
  small droplet "carburation" would help - but is excluded by your requirement
  of using a wick.

   The only remaining avenue are the fuel additives,  which can
   supply some oxygen and also increase the viscosity of fuel vapors:

These are the things to try:


oxygenated fuel - additives such as MTBE 
http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/gas.htm

Some herbal oils may act as oxygenation additives
http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/usdisp/coriandrum_oleu.html


Egyptian oil lamps used salt, according to this source 
http://www.du.edu/~etuttle/classics/egyplite.htm

 Adding turpentine to the oil may have positive effect
http://guilford.eng.yale.edu/pdfs/force_flame.pdf
but caution is required.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpentine

Adding a bit of Fondue fuel may be tried. 

Here is a survey of additives. 
http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbibles/additives.html

  Additives may reduce flicker but elimination of flicker may require
some form of burner
 or adding a wire gauze to the flame to act as a stabilizer.

Use  of wire-gauze wick  may help, particularly of some wired would
extend into the flame, as in
 the Davy lamp, in which wire is wrapped around gauze around the
flame. But here we are deviating from the
prescribed configuration of plain wick flame. Some compromise, perhaps
with a single thin wire in the flame,
may be necessary

Hedgie

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Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 31 Aug 2005 04:53 PDT

Steady flame may be essential for meditation and religious rituals.

Considerable controversy was ranging through the middle ages about
possibility of 'perpetual flames'
..Ever-burning lamps have been discovered in all parts of the world.
Not only the Mediterranean countries but also India, Tibet, China, and
South America have contributed records of lights which burned
continuously without fuel. The examples which follow were selected at
random from the imposing list of perpetual lamps found in different
ages...



http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta14.htm

Several formulæ for the making of the fuel for the lamps have been
preserved. In Isis Unveiled, H. P. Blavatsky reprints two of these
formulæ from early authors--Tritenheim and Bartolomeo Korndorf. One
will suffice to give a general understanding of the process: (also in)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta14.htm

While that may not be possible, science allows for some stabilisation
of flame by additives, as explained previously.
Eternal as well  as steady  open flames may exist, like perpetual
mobile and unicorns, only in realm of fiction.
This article is attempting to reconcile some of the traditions with modern science.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6581/ancient_lights.html

However,
" A steady flame used   for meditation, should  Use natural (not
 
chemical) incense such as sandalwood, with its calming and cooling
 
effect on the mind, or fragrances such as rose or frankincense.."
according to this source.
http://www.sivananda.org/publications/yogalife/fall2003/pdfs/page22-meditation.pdf


If this is the application you are interested in, then the 'fuel additives'
we discussed in the previous clarification  should not be
modern chemicals. In that case  I would suggest perhaps following the
practice of ancient tribes, who discovered
importance of essential oils long before our civilization(s) arrived.

Most interesting additive apears to be  frankincense.

Hebrew: lebonah; Greek: libanos, i.e., "white") aslos called Olibanum.

an odorous resin imported from Arabia (Isa. 60:6; Jer. 6:20), yet also
growing in Palestine (Song of Songs 4:14)
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/frankincense.html


On the trail of ancient civilization
Frankincense and myrrh, aromatic resins from spindly trees, were once
highly prized from Rome to India, and deemed essential for a host of
uses ranging from religious to cosmetic to medicinal.... evidence of
ancient settlements... worthy of excavation that will help unravel the
mystery.
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues98/oct98/yemen.html



 It has meaning for all religions, starting with Hindu 'row of lights festival', 
 In the Christian tradition 'three wise man' were bringing
frankincense to the baby Jesus , and
 It may have been used in the ner-tamid , originally an oil lamp or
censer, in which oil or incense was burned
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ner_tamid.html

Tamid in this connection was understood to mean "perpetual" as used in
the context of a synagogue lamp. For the changes in the meaning of
this term see Y. Ben-David, "Ner tamid, esh tamid" [Hebrew], Leshonenu
la'am, 28/6 (5737 [1977]), pp. 171-176.
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums/5th/tabory00notes.html


  So, as a final clarification, I suggest using a censer and filing it
with a mixture of oil and frankincense,
  constraining the supply of oxygen so that one filling will last a whole week.

The use of censer is described here.

And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden
censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer
of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before
the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the
saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
http://www.communityofhopeinc.org/Catholic Beliefs/Sacred Possessions.html


As you can see on the picture, it can be fully enclosed, so that you
can eliminate draft and control the supply of oxygen.
If you want to see the light, part of the censer wall can be made of glass.

 Many kinds of oil lamps, censers and combinations, made of
combinations of glass, brass, ceramics are available,
on eBay and specilaised shops

http://www.capricornslair.com/burners.html



You may have to experiment with different ratios of mixtures of
frankincense and olive oil.

utilizing our modern scientific understanding of the fuel additives

    The crude resin of frankincense and myrrh can be treated in one of
two ways to produce liquid aromatics. The resin is soluble in chemical
solvents, the essential oil can be steam distilled. The solvent
extraction process produces a viscous, almost solid substance called a
resinoid. Resinoids are soluble in high-grade, odorless alcohols.
Alcohol dissolved resinoids are sometimes passed off as distilled
essential oils. Resinoids are often used in perfume making. Steam
distilled essential oils of frankincense and myrrh are most
appropriate for use in aromatherapy.

http://www.fnfnet.com/leftmenu/baike/xiangzhishi/engdecription3.asp

Frankincense Oil The free flowing translucent to pale yellow or pale amber liquid
is described here:
http://members.aol.com/parijata/frankincense.html

You may try other additives as well, Hindus were

... mixing Kumkum in oil and after breaking a bitter fruit that
represents the head of the demon King that was smashed by Krishna,
apply that mixture on their foreheads. Then they have an oil bath
using sandalwood paste...
http://www.neworleansmistic.com/spells/primer/magicoillamps.htm


So,

combining some hints from combustion science with old traditions may
allow you to reach your goals.
I wish you success in your undertaking, and perhaps you can post a
comment about result of your experiments.

Hedgie

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Request for Answer Clarification by rbarukh-ga on 31 Aug 2005 05:31 PDT

Hi Hedgie,

Thanks for the on-going support!

For the wick, do you still suggest a metal one? If so, can you please
expand on how to make/obtain one.

All in all, this is what you suggest...

- Use of a cencer
- Fuel additives mixed with oil

Thanks a lot,
Reuven

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Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 31 Aug 2005 08:14 PDT

and restricting on flow of the  fuel.
 That may be most important, as it will reduce the burn rate
 so that the natural diffusion may keep pace with the consumption of oxygen.
(It also may make one-day supply to last a week).

You may also try air  enriched with oxygen - caution is advised and, please,
do re-read the diclaimers below.

 Wire wicks are available from several sources:
http://www.yaley.com/candles/candle_paint.html
http://www.endtimesreport.com/Kero_Stove_Wicks.htm
http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/5339/1303

Do differentiate between woven, wire-mesh, braided wick and wire core wick 
(some of the later may contain lead).

Hedgie

What an intriguing question  - besides wondering about the reason for it.

Obviously, one needs to eliminate even the slightest outside
influences:  draft (draught), oxygen content of air, wick, oil quality
and flow, perfect exhaust above the flame, and even earth tremors and
sound.  And probably something that has not occurred to me.
That sounds like a major laboratory experiment.  

Earth tremors  - Japan, of course, but also many/any other places -
also from ocean waves, will be a real problem.  Sound  - absolute
silence - can be achieved at a price.  Perfect  - constant - air
quality and flow (exhaust) maybe also.  Fiberglass wick and constant
level of oil supply are less difficult to solve.
Reuven, in your first clarification you ask:
"Also, how am I able not to use a wick if I would want the flame to burn off oil?"

This problem was solved by the "pressure lamp", which you can read
about on this site:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/munwai/history.htm

The solution was heating the kerosine/parafin so that it vaporized and
burned on a "mantle".  This is a mesh of some material (I don't know
what).  The fuel burns at a much higher temperature than that of a
flame, an almost white light, but there is no flame as such to
flicker.

The mantle is not a wick, per se, which carries the oil/kerosine by
osmosis to fuel the flame.

If your experiment insists on a wick, then this is no solution.  If
the goal is to have an unflickering light, it could be  - just have to
provide a week's supply of fuel.

Myoarin