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Subject:
Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
Category: Relationships and Society > Cultures Asked by: jaseaux-ga List Price: $2.00 |
Posted:
06 Sep 2005 12:41 PDT
Expires: 06 Oct 2005 12:41 PDT Question ID: 564884 |
I could be wrong, but I think that the word manipulation evokes a negative connotation. A manipulator is thought to be a bad person. Why is that? Certainly some manipulators are bad people, and some manipulations are bad, but shouldn't the specific item or person be addressed, instead of lumping all manipulations and manipulators together. For example, my friend wanted to buy a new car. There were several that he was interested in, none really more advantageous than another. I manipulated him into getting the car that I would most like to have him drive me around in. I don't see anything wrong with that. Another example would be hurricane Katrina. I wanted to experiment with people's reaction and their willingness to give. I manipulated many people into giving money and other supplies to organizations such as Red Cross (They donated directly to the organization.) These people are not hardshipped after giving. In fact, they feel great about it. But they would not have given anything had I not manipulated them. (Simply asking for a donation did not work either.) Then there are manipulations that aren't really good or bad. Manipulating your friends into paying for dinner and movies, your kids into cleaning their rooms, your boss into giving you easy assignments, your teachers into giving you extra time on your project, etc. Yes, there are many instances where people are manipulated into doing things that are detrimental to themselves. That manipulation, I would agree, is negative. But why is there such a consensus that every manipulator is bad? Is it similar to the way that many people think that all lawyers and politicians are bad? Or the way that all Democrats think George Bush is bad. Maybe it's not something they truly believe, but they're programmed to say it? |
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Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: hammer-ga on 06 Sep 2005 13:07 PDT |
Jaseaux-ga, What do you believe to be the difference between "manipulating" someone and "convincing" someone? "Manipulation" has a negative denotation to go with the negative connotation. It specifically refers to using devious means to gain advantage for oneself. Is this how you define of manipulation in terms of your question? Did you manipulate your car-friend by citing false statistics about the car you preferred, or did you manipulate him by telling him that you really liked Car A? - Hammer |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: pinkfreud-ga on 06 Sep 2005 13:15 PDT |
To me, manipulation differs from persuasion. Manipulation implies an element of deception. Take, for example, advertising. The purpose of an advertisement is to lure me into buying something. I see nothing intrinsically wrong in that. If an ad presents a product in an attractive manner and promotes its best features, that's fine with me. That's persuasion. However, if an advertisement misrepresents the product, or uses misleading terms in describing it, that is manipulation. |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: jupdfl-ga on 06 Sep 2005 13:55 PDT |
I think it has a negative connotation because to manipulate someone infers that you are gaining something from the manipulation. To me, persuasion simply means making someone agree with your point of view. In your car example, you gained because *you* now look good driving around in a car. Your example of Katrina you doesn't say how you manipulated people to give. If you lied and said you were a victim when you weren't, and you benefitted from their generosity, that would also be manipulation, no matter how good they felt about it. If you did not benefit from their generosity, you simply persuaded them to give. |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: jaseaux-ga on 06 Sep 2005 22:29 PDT |
Hammer, My confusion may stem from using words like devious to describe manipulation. Devious, one who deviates from what is right and commonly accepted. So while I may not have lied to my friend or given him false statistics, I still used methods that are commonly thought of as deviant or manipulative. I think the difference between convincing and manipulating have to do with logic. If you lay out the facts to someone like a roadmap, and attempt to lead them logicaly to your point of view, you may be able to convince them. A manipulator prefers to use subtle comments that are designed to lead the person to a particular destination, without the person realizing he was led there. You might call it a psychological roadmap instead of a logical roadmap. Here is a quick example of the two methods. Not the best example, but it should show what I mean. John wants his friend Mike to take him to the movies on Friday. Mike already has plans with his girlfriend. Convincing: John: "Don't go out with Sally on Friday, lets go see a movie." Mike: "Sorry bro, I already promised her." John: "You've gone out with her the last 5 Fridays, can't we hang out this Friday? That's reasonable." Mike: "Sorry bro, no-can-do." John: "I'll buy the tickets, and I'll make sure Sally is okay with it." Mike: "No way bro." Manipulating: (John remembers that 2 months ago Mike and Sally got in a fight about Sally talking to her ex-boyfriend.) John: "Mike, my girlfriend has been talking to her ex-boyfriend on the phone. It's driving me crazy. My girl said that Sally talks to her ex-boyfriend all the time and you're okay with it. Man, teach me how not to be jealous." Mike: "Sally doesn't talk to her ex-boyfriend." John: "Oh, maybe my girl was thinking of someone else. Anyway, it's driving me nuts. She wanted to go go out this Friday but since she's been talking to her ex, I don't want to take her anywhere. Why should I take her out if she has a desire to talk to other guys. She probably has a bunch of sexual thoughts about him. You want to hang out on Friday? Oh wait, you were gonna go out with Sally, right?" Mike: "Well, we haven't hung out in awhile. I'll call Sally and tell her I'm hanging with you on Friday. She's been kinda getting on my nerves anyway." See, so you elicit some type of targeted emotional response designed to have a particular reaction. It's manipulative, and it's awesome. Nobody gets hurt. Show me why it's negative. |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: jaseaux-ga on 06 Sep 2005 22:34 PDT |
Pinkfreud, What if the ad plays certain music during the portion where they talk about the competitors product. What if they acertained by polling that a large majority of the population have negative memories when they hear that song, for whatever reason. That's manipulation. Manipulation doesn't imply deception, it implies unfair control over the person being manipulated. Unfair because he/she doesn't realize why they now have a subtle negative feeling towards the competitors product. Or how about at a retail location. Take for example the aspirin bottles at wal-mart. Many stores put products up smallest to largest, left to right. Since most people are right handed, there is a manipulative force, however slight, to buy the largest item instead of the smallest. No misrepresentation, but obvious manipulation. |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: jaseaux-ga on 06 Sep 2005 22:38 PDT |
Jupdfl, With the Katrina example, let's say I didn't lie, but again, I pushed certain buttons to elicit a response. The way it benefited me is simple. I was able to study reactions to my psychological button pushing and take note of what was effective, and what wasn't. So the person wasn't harmed or lied to, they felt good about what they did, I didn't convince them using logic but rather nudged them psychologically, and I benefited from it. Does that make it bad? |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: hammer-ga on 07 Sep 2005 05:31 PDT |
Jaseaux-ga, <<<See, so you elicit some type of targeted emotional response designed to have a particular reaction. It's manipulative, and it's awesome. Nobody gets hurt. Show me why it's negative.>>> In your example, you lie to or mislead your friend when you claim that your girlfriend is telling you that his girl is talking to her ex. Even if it is true (which your example implies is not the case), you are only sharing the information for the purposes of causing your friend enough pain that he will refuse to see Sally. In addition, you claim that "nobody gets hurt" which is not the case. You damage the relationship between Mike and Sally in a very real way. You may also damage the relationship between Sally and your girlfriend when Sally finds out why Mike is upset with her and wants to know why your girl is telling lies about her. So, to gain for yourself the relatively trivial benefit of going to a movie with Mike, you have lied to or misled a friend in a way that does quite a bit of harm. This meets the criteria of manipulation (as opposed to convincing) because you have employed devious methods to gain an advantage for yourself. - Hammer |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: jupdfl-ga on 07 Sep 2005 05:59 PDT |
As to the original question, "Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?", I think the reason is because that is part of its very definition. Whether you manipulate or persuade, the end result is the same. Some one is doing something (or believing something) that they they wouldn't have done otherwise. To get this result from devious or insincere means (both negative) is to manipulate. Otherwise, you have persuaded. You are persuading your friend to go to the movies with you if you keep up the argument about buying tickets...OK'ing it with girlfriend. But you start manipulating him by triggering jealousy in him (devious) about his girlfriend. Not to imply that it is always easy to persuade.....sometimes it takes manipulation to get what you want. :) |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: myoarin-ga on 07 Sep 2005 06:58 PDT |
" Why is manipulation always considered a negative action? " There are several expressions for the different ways of arguing or presenting one's own opinion about a decision someone else will take: convince, persuade, talk him into, influence, coerce ...(?) and manipulate. It is the common and generally understood interpretation that manipulate is at the morally lower end of the list, implying devious, dishonest methods. That is simply the way the word is used. With the variety of expressions available, manipulate is the one used to denote a negative action. If one does not want to imply this, one of the other expressions should be used. If there were only one word for the activity of influencing another's decision, we would have to used additional words to express the nuances. The dictionaries give the meanings "manage, handle", which suggest control. People don't likes to feel that they are being "controlled" concerning a decision that they consider to be their individual choice. The Latin root of manipulate, "manus", hand, is evident in other expressions about a person who can manipulate someone: He was putty in her hands; or she could wrap him around her little finger. (No apologies, girls; it's the men who let themselves or like to be manipulated.) Does that help? Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: rogerwilco-ga on 08 Sep 2005 02:45 PDT |
Hi Jaseaux, I'm studying the semiotics of language right now, and yours is a very interesting question! Of course, the negative connotation is just part of the way English-speakers use the word 'manipulation,' so perhaps another term gets more to your point (myorian's 'hande' or 'manage,' or, to be more high-fallutin' about it, 'orchestrate,' 'choreograph,' or even just 'design'), but that's no answer to your question. I think the moral objection to alll of these, though, comes from the fact that they all involve an inequality of information. That is, in fact, a form of deceit. Don't kid yourself that a passive lie -- leaving out relevant information only you could possibly know -- is that different from an active lie -- putting in incorrect information. That's a distinction ethics rarely draws, and the law doesn't always draw either. Putting the aspirin on the shelf a certain way might seem innocuous, as long as *the customer knows what they are doing,* just as much as the shopkeeper does. So yes, that might be a form of deceit -- a trivial one, but deceit nonetheless. This is why advertisements need to be labeled a such, even if they don't actually lie, and why things like drug ads need to state complications and side effects, even if, again, nothing they say is actually false. The advertiser or drug company is assumed to know more than the consumer, and that inequality of information is assumed to be (at least potentially) exploitive. In your example: >So the person wasn't harmed or lied to, they felt good about what they >did, I didn't convince them using logic but rather nudged them >psychologically, and I benefited from it. Does that make it bad? I think the appropriate question is this: If the person knew everything that you did (about the potential benefit to you, about your tactics, about the situation), would they *still* feel good about it? If the answer is no, then yes, IMHO, you're being manipulative. You're using an inequality of information for your benefit, and that's a form of passive lying. Just my two cents, Roger |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: jaseaux-ga on 08 Sep 2005 13:34 PDT |
Roger, I like your answer. It's pretty thought provoking. I think there may be some flaws, however. I think an inequality of information will always exist, and I don't consider it deceitful. Think of the complexities of the human mind. Someone who is often thought of as a manipulator might see dozens upon dozens of "angles" regarding a single subject. To level the playing field, the manipulator would have to prepare a speech to inform the other person about the different ways they both may benefit or detriment, and all the other ideas the manipulator may have. Tylenol certainly knows that generic brands are just as effective, but they don't ever mention it, and they manipulate you by saying "Tylenol, a brand you can trust" which causes the human mind to question whether or not they can trust the generic brand. I also think we need to draw a distinction between relevant information and vital information. I don't consider it deceitful to leave out relevant information. Relevant information is too vast. Vital information, on the other hand, is when you really break it down to the pieces that are absolutely necessary to make an informed decision. I think a talented manipulator can provide all the vital information and then play around with the relevant information to make things go the way he desires. |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: amber00-ga on 08 Sep 2005 14:19 PDT |
Sissela Bok wrote a book called 'Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life' (Vintage Books). She compared lying and violence. Both involve coercing the other person into doing what they don't want to do; the former by force, the latter by fraud. So does manipulation in the manner that you describe. It denies the other person the chance to make a free and informed choice. It is treating them as a means to fulfil your goals without considering their goals or aims at all. (This violates the autonomy of the other person, so is contrary to all Kantian ethical systems as well.) To deny this adds hypocrisy to manipulation. How would you like it if you became aware that other people were doing this to you? |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: jaseaux-ga on 08 Sep 2005 18:04 PDT |
Amber, it's not fraud. You should have said, one by force (physical) and one by thought (mental). I never make a decision unless I have all the facts I feel are necessary to make an educated decision. If someone attempts to manipulate me, if I fall for it, then I accept that. It doesn't anger me. That being said, it's difficult to manipulate a manipulator. If someone succeeds, I would probably take a close look at their successful technique rather than getting upset. |
Subject:
Re: Why is manipulation always considered a negative action?
From: sojourning-ga on 16 Nov 2005 11:59 PST |
The Law of Human Nature is at play here. Let me give an example: If you made yourself a home which I then took from you and lived in, you would feel slighted and wronged. Why? I could argue that I was needier than you or that since I was smart enough to take it from you I deserved it more. Whatever the reason, it is of no matter, you would still feel wronged and I would still be the one who had selfishly wronged you. Allow me to clarify my point; I am not talking about the laws of nature ? where only the strong survive or where the powerful consume the weak. No. These are animalistic behaviors that humanity has risen above. No ethicist would defend the public murder of a weak child by a 300 pound brut, which is the very real extension of animalistic behavior allowed free reign. If you study human history, you will find that no intellectually advanced society in history has ever held these types of behaviors up to be admired. In fact it is considered a form of social dysfunction to look up to or admire a person who is animalistic in there behavior. Now, to be sure there are these types of people in life, but psychologists tell us that by-enlarge they are socially handicapped and mentally sick. They are deviant from the acceptable actions of a moral society. In particular to your question; to manipulate (as you have used and explained the word) indicates a violation of the victim?s cognitive and emotional personhood. If you utilize abilities or talents to undermine the cognitive or emotional processes of others in order to make a more favorable outcome for yourself you have imposed a form of animalistic control. You are stronger in some form than the person whom you have manipulated and you have used that against them. The outcome is not a matter of opinion. It cannot be logically asked whether or not it is right to manipulate others or if it is advantageous to do so. Without exception, for the manipulator the answer is yes it is advantageous. However, for the victim, the answer is always no, it was not advantageous. This is the nature of manipulation as you have described it. It comes back to the Law of Human Nature. Unlike the Law of Gravity or the Law of Biology, we have a choice as to whether we follow the Law of Human Nature. But human beings from every moral background have throughout the history of the world held an understood code that puts them into a higher category than animals. We understand fairness, justice, sacrifice, and selflessness. The United States honored the firefighters of 9/11 because of those qualities. The British, French, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Greek, they all honor their national heroes and historical figures for exampling these qualities. Going against the basic Law of Human Nature, lying, twisting facts (or manipulating them ? to say it another way) imposing a dominant will on others against there will or without there knowledge, stealing ? whether overtly or covertly ? as in the eroding of the ability of others to make fully informed choices: these are actions to be looked down upon in an advanced society. To allow oneself to participate in them or for a society to give validation to such behavior leads to the weakening of that society and ultimately will destroy the society that allows them. Remember Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Both historical examples of societies that have manipulated their citizens with small amounts of truth and large amounts twisting. From the Kamikaze Fighters to the Holocaust guards, misinformation and skillful manipulation destroyed thousands lives and ultimately the societies that employed those devious tactics. Something to think about...don't you think? |
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