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Subject:
Molecular Modeling of Electrons in Proteins by Super Computer Quantum Mechanics
Category: Science > Chemistry Asked by: johnwhitlow-ga List Price: $200.00 |
Posted:
10 Sep 2005 20:20 PDT
Expires: 10 Oct 2005 20:20 PDT Question ID: 566641 |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Molecular Modeling of Electrons in Proteins by Super Computer Quantum Mechanics
From: acrh2-ga on 12 Sep 2005 00:33 PDT |
I am not a theoretical chemist, but even I know that what you are suggesting is absurd: 1) Electron-electron interactions is one of the most difficult problems of quantum mechanics. No exact solution for such systems exists. Hence, there's no way to calculate them "with perfect precision". 2) The best level on theory that you can hope for is usually labeled ab initio. An example would be Density Functional Theory. However, in such methods of calculation, the computational time rises exponentially with the number of electrons. Calculating a million atoms with, say, 6-10 electrons per atom on average, with the currently existing hardware, would most likely take longer than the age of the universe (just a wild guess here). 3) Protein structure calculations are usually carried out with a method called Molecular Mechanics. It's an empirical method, which gives decent results with respect to atom positions and dynamics. Several commerical suites of sofware exist, and I think you should be able to google some of the freeware ones. However, one million atoms still sounds a little too much and would probably require a supercomputer. |
Subject:
Re: Molecular Modeling of Electrons in Proteins by Super Computer Quantum Mechanics
From: hfshaw-ga on 12 Sep 2005 16:39 PDT |
Modeling the structure of proteins is one of the unsolved "grand challenge" problems of computational chemistry. Check out http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/sj/402/allen.html, especially Table 1. There, it is estimated that a petaflop/sec computer (which is about an order of magnitude faster than the fastest existing supercomputer) would require ~3 years to simulate ~100 microseconds of protein folding using *classical* molecular dynamics. "Classical" means no quantum mechanical calculations of electronic energy levels; one would simply be using empirical force fields assigned to each atom and using Newtonian mechanics to model the evolution of the system. |
Subject:
Re: Molecular Modeling of Electrons in Proteins by Super Computer Quantum Mechanics
From: ascaniosobrero-ga on 22 Sep 2005 06:36 PDT |
Actually, the answer is very simple, even if probably not what expected. As the other commenters pointed out, it is simply impossible. There is no exact solution for any sistem with more than one electron, and any approximate calculation for a system of the complexity outlined and for time span requested will not probably benefit even of future quantum computers. The best we can do, at present, is to model the (small) most interesting part of the system with quantum mechanics/DFT, and the remaining part with molecular mechanics (no electrons allowed). |
Subject:
Re: Molecular Modeling of Electrons in Proteins by Super Computer Quantum Mechanics
From: acrh2-ga on 02 Oct 2005 23:22 PDT |
A graduate student in theoretical chemistry has told me that I've made a mistake earlier. DFT is not an ab initio level of theory. Its computation time rises with the number of electrons almost linerly: t ~ N^1.3 according to that man. However, when asked how much time would be reqired to do a one million atom system similar to a protein by DFT, his answer was "maybe forever". :) |
Subject:
Re: Molecular Modeling of Electrons in Proteins by Super Computer Quantum Mechan
From: sthbiophysicist-ga on 18 Oct 2005 10:43 PDT |
I can't believe that you're actually serious about this question. Since you apparently know enough to formulate an accurate and descriptive question, I seriously doubt that you're completely ignorant of the massive computational requirements. I've done a bit of this work (both QM and MD simulations) with small (~5000 atom) proteins. Doing a QM energy calculation of a small organic molecule (~25 atoms) with a reasonable level of theory (HF/6-31G** w/ B3LYP) with Gaussian(tm) takes about 10 minutes on a single 2GHz P4. Other programs/hardware will vary, but not by much more than an order of magnitude. But computation time increases exponentially with system size, so my guess is that it would take about 1 CPU-year to do a single energy calculation of a multi-megadalton protein. And it would probably take several hundred gigabytes of RAM to do so. And this is just a single energy calculation. It's not even a geometry optimization, nor anything even close to dynamics (which is what you're asking). Thus far, the only way to do dynamics is to skip the QM and treat the system through Newtonian approximations: bonds are springs, atoms are point charges, etc. You can do a single timestep of a 10k atom system in about 15 CPU seconds on a 2GHz P4. Increasing the system size in MD doesn't have quite the exponential calculation penalty that QM does (because it assumes geometric cutoffs for the interactions; eg, anything farther than 15 angstroms away doesn't affect the atom you're looking at), but it's still a decent penalty. Figure maybe, 30 CPU-minutes per timestep if you have a 1e6 atom protein with solvent (implicit or explicit). But the big hit here is that you're calculating many, many timesteps for dynamics. Standard procedure is 1 fs timesteps, though you might be able to get away with 2 fs if you don't care so much about accuracy (and your hydrogens behave nicely). So that means you're calculating 1e15 timesteps to get a full second of dynamics. The longest simulations ever done to date are on the order of a few milliseconds, and those take months with a small protein. You're looking at a good couple of years to do a full second of dynamics for a small protein, and maybe a decade for a large protein system. And this isn't even taking the QM into account. Finally, even if you decide you can commit the computational resources to doing a 10-year-long calculation, there's the matter of getting a computer system that will actually run for that long. That's roughly 316 million seconds of computational time. Even if your system has 99.999% uptime, you'll still suffer about an hour of downtime per compute node during those 10 years. And trust me, MPI (which serves as the multiprocessor platform for most computational chemistry programs) is not exactly designed to be fault tolerant. Losing one node will probably cause the entire program to crash. IBM's Blue Gene project is trying something along the lines of what you want, but they're a lot more realistic than your parameters. |
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