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Q: Economic meltdown ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   10 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Economic meltdown
Category: Business and Money > Economics
Asked by: chatnoirseul-ga
List Price: $50.00
Posted: 12 Sep 2005 16:56 PDT
Expires: 12 Oct 2005 16:56 PDT
Question ID: 567350
What would be the impact on individuals, families and small businesses
of an economic meltdown?

Here?s a quote from a piece looking at the large picture "...  
the yield on the 10-year bond shooting from 4.25 to 6.25, the average
30-year mortgage rising from 6 percent to 8 percent - would mean
instantly higher borrowing costs for the government, businesses and
consumers. It would drench Wall Street, soaking the stocks of giant
interest-rate-sensitive blue chips like Citigroup and making life
difficult for speculative, debt-ridden companies."

[Daniel Gross, ?The Perfect Storm That Could Drown the Economy,?
NYTimes    5/8/05.]

What I?d like is a short, maybe one- or two-page, account of how it
might play out at - let?s say, - the Main Street level...

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 12 Sep 2005 19:16 PDT
chatnoirseul-ga,

Thanks for responding in such concrete fashion to the suggestion I
made below...I wrote it tongue in cheek, and I hope it didn't come
across as snide.

I find this a difficult question to approach, because I don't really
know what you're getting at.

If there's an economic meltdown, people lose their jobs, tighten their
belts, focus on essentials, postpone school, dentistry, medical care
and all sorts of other things, and if things get really bad, then they
fall into the underclass in America that tries to live off the
so-called safety net as best they can.  The stress of the situation
can be awful, and can lead to an increase in both personal unrest
(breakdowns), family unrest (violence) as well as social unrest
(crime, riots).

Beyond that, though, what do you want to know?  What scenario are we
imagining has taken place?  What kind of information are you seeking?

The more you can tell us, the better the chances of receiving an
answer that's well targeted to your interests.

Thanks,

pafalafa-ga

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 12 Sep 2005 20:39 PDT
You wrote: 

>>If we could get an outline within which to organize individual
aspects of the scene that would be a help<<


Your comments will help me to focus on what you're after. 

You mentioned a "scene".  Are you writing a story? A scrrenplay? An
academic paper?  Knowing a bit more of the context of what you're
doing would help.

You also mentioned that my earlier comments were useful.  I'd be glad
to elaborate on these at some length, and add other aspects of what an
economic meltdown might entail.

HOWEVER, I need to know that you would be comfortable with just the
personal speculation of one person...me!

If you're looking for formal references, academic studies, other
articles on meltdown economics, then that's a very different sort of
question than the one you seem to be asking, which I take to be:  What
do *you* think a meltdown would look like.

If it's a personal opinion you're seeking, then I can try to provide it.

Let me know if that would meet your needs.

Thanks,

paf

Clarification of Question by chatnoirseul-ga on 12 Sep 2005 21:28 PDT
>>I'd be glad to elaborate on these at some length, and add other
aspects of what an economic meltdown might entail.<<

[OK.  Personal opinion will be fine.  Need not be long - I know, may
be hard to keep short.  Two or three pages? .  ?Scene? only in the
sense of a frame within which the process is ongoing.  This is just
about getting some conception of how a meltdown would look in local
terms not macroeconomic terms.]

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 13 Sep 2005 12:27 PDT
chatnoirseul-ga,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I'll be working on this over the next few days (honestly, I'm
squeezing it in between a lot of other things going on).  It's quite
an interesting challenge.

Stay tuned...


paf

Clarification of Question by chatnoirseul-ga on 13 Sep 2005 22:31 PDT
No hurray!

Clarification of Question by chatnoirseul-ga on 15 Sep 2005 17:37 PDT
for   pafalafa-ga 

Sorry for typo: I meant 'no hurry.'

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 15 Sep 2005 20:10 PDT
I hope there will be a "hurray" when I'm done.

I'm working on it, so stay tuned...


paf

Clarification of Question by chatnoirseul-ga on 15 Sep 2005 21:09 PDT
OK - sounds good
Answer  
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
Answered By: pafalafa-ga on 16 Sep 2005 11:34 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
chatnoirseul-ga,



It's actually a bit daunting thinking through what a 21st century
depression might look like.

Our global economy continues to rocket ahead, growing to an
ever-larger size, but as they say, the bigger they are, the harder the
fall.  And with gasoline shocks, natural disasters, terrorism,
technology bubbles, real estate bubbles, and just plain happenstance
rocking the economy on an irregularly regular basis, the whole thing
seems to often be teetering precariously on the brink
of....of....what?

What would the whole mess look like in the event of an economic meltdown?


Let me attempt an answer by elaborating on the items I wrote already:


--People lose their jobs -- When the technology bubble burst in 2000,
it was not only tech workers who lost their jobs.  Technology
companies drastically cut back on their advertising budgets as one of
their first ways of cutting costs.  They also cut back on their
equipment spending, and soon, equipment manufacturers were also
cutting their advertising budget.  My wife, who worked for a national
weekly magazine, sat nervously through round after round of layoffs,
as the magazine staff was cut to the bone.  Finally, her turn came,
and the ax fell!

In an economic meltdown, this sort of scenario is not only repeated en
masse, in millions of households around the country (and many more
around the world!).  But there's a sort of self-reinforcing negative
feedback loop at work.  People get fired from their jobs, and cut back
on their consumer spending, which, in turn, causes other businesses to
curtail any expansion plans, so they stop hiring new people.

Not only are folks out of a job in a meltdown, but new opprotunities
rapidly vanish.  The unemployed have real trouble finding any
opportunities to get re-hired in comparable jobs.  They longer they
are unemployed, and the more desperate their personal finances become,
the lower they set their sights.  If a former business executive has
to take a job greeting customers at Wal-Mart in order to get some
income, that's the job he'll take -- if indeed, such a job is
available at all.





--People tighten their belts, focus on essentials, postpone school,
dentistry, medical care and all sorts of other things -- This is
perhaps the major aspect of an economic meltdown that can make it so
damaging, both to the economy overall and to individuals.

In an economic meltdown, even people lucky enough to maintain stable
incomes are faced with a greatly increased degree of uncertainty --
Will I have a job next week?  Will my spouse be working?  Will my
income keep pace with inflation?   So people faced with possible loss
of income begin feeling the same pressures and making some of the same
choices as those faced with an actual loss of income.  They pare back
their spending.  They postpone non-essentials, such as vacations, a
new car, or moving to a larger house, or taking that college course
they were interested in.  And as more and more people make similar
economic choices, these multiple postponments only add to the growing
economic malaise.

Those who are in truly tough economic straits have to make even more
draconian decisions -- postponing a trip to the dentist, even though
that back tooth is aching, or putting off taking the kids to the
doctor for their next round of vaccinations.  These folks are
approaching an economic crisis that can lead to my next impact area...



--If things get really bad, then they fall into the underclass in
America that tries to live off the so-called safety net as best they
can.

Economic hardship can put people, families and communities on a
slippery slope.  Those that have lost their jobs may qualify for
unemployment -- a government payment to keep people afloat as they
seek new jobs -- but even where this is available, it is a temporary
measure and eventually lapses.  Other types of government financial
assistance exist -- foodstamps, help with medical services, and there
are still some forms of outright welfare.  But these assistance
programs are never enough to support most unemployed people in the
manner in which they were accustomed when they were working.  Since
housing costs are such a major chunk of personal expenses, one of the
most dire impacts of economic meltdowns is the inability to afford to
stay in one's home or apartment, and be forced to move to lesser
accomodations -- or even into homelessness and reliance on
'soup-kitchen' type shelters.

All of these things take a huge psychological toll -- even for the
individuals and families that are still managing to squeeze by.  There
is such a strong cultural association between government programs like
foodstamps, and the condition of poverty, that there's a great deal of
resistance to acknowledging a need for such a program for one's self
and one's family, and a tremendous sense of personal failure at having
to accept such a 'handout'.  Which adds to....





--The stress of the situation can be awful, and can lead to an
increase in both personal unrest (breakdowns), family unrest
(violence) as well as social unrest (crime, riots).

The images coming out of New Orleans have made clear that which has
always been obvious, but which we tend to forget -- being poor is a
very tough way to live.  Perhaps even tougher -- or maybe just a
different kind of tough -- is living in relative comfort for so long,
and suddenly being plunged into poverty from the impact of an economic
meltdown.  The unarticulated assumption that "I/we will always be
OK...will always find a way to make due" gets shattered as people are
faced with loss of jobs and homes, the descent in bankruptcy,
destitution, and the despair that can come with all of that.

As the ranks of the newly-poor swell, and as the entrenched-poor
become even more desperate in their plight, the stresses create can
readily tear the fabric of family life and social cohesion.  Family
members in crowded quarters snap at each other, and some of them turn
violent.  Divorce -- or simply the unofficial scattering of a
once-cohesive family -- increases.  Escape into alcohol or drugs
becomes more alluring, as does the illusion of security that can come
from gangs.  Theft is more tempting, especially for those who feel
that the food/clothes/electronics or whatever, somehow should
rightfully belong to them.  The combination of all these things leads
to a marked increase in violent crime.

It's not just individuals and families that begin to break apart. 
Communities can respond this way as well.  Cities loose their tax base
with which they provide citizen services; stores close down in poorer
neighborhoods, chased out by lack of spending power and crime;
communities at one time sympathetic (if only modestly aware) of the
poor in their midst become resentful as their ranks swell.  The result
can be an organized acting-out in the sense of gangs, demonstrations,
organized crime.  Or it can lead to more spontaneous outbursts...riots
and looting and unprovoked violence.

The stress is not only on the poor, though they certainly bear the
brunt.  Even the well-off become disgruntled as the tenth homeless
person of the day approaches them for some spare change.  And if the
approach happens to feel menacing rather than benign, then all the
more tension is created.


It's not a happy picture.  

Nor is it a totally hypothetical one.  Although "economic meltdown"
may not be an appropriate description for our national economy at the
moment, it certainly is an apt description of the way some of our
population -- and a good deal of the world -- live their day to day
lives.


=======================


I hope this is the sort of thing you were after...a few pages of
personal observation.  It's always a special sort of challenge to
answer a relatively open-ended question.


Do let me know any comments you have.

But please do not rate this answer yet if you have any questions about
it, or would like anything in addition to the above.  Just post a
Request for Clarification to let me know how I can assist you, and I'm
at your service.

Thanks, again, for giving me this interesting opportunity....


pafalafa-ga
chatnoirseul-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $10.00
Very well thought out, especially since my statement of the problem was so fuzzy.
Thanks very much.  If there is a way to reach you I may offer some
more comment later but wanted to respond right away.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: pafalafa-ga on 12 Sep 2005 17:55 PDT
 
One effect of an meltdown may well be that researchers are willing to
write a two-page research paper for ten bucks.

But I wouldn't hold my breath...!

Perhaps you might want to reconsider the scope and/or price of your question.


pafalafa-ga
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: chatnoirseul-ga on 12 Sep 2005 18:08 PDT
 
Would 50.00 work?  Give us some clue...
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: myoarin-ga on 12 Sep 2005 18:48 PDT
 
One clue: responsible banks balance their borrowing and lending. 
Their long term loans are financed by long term debt  - and cheap
savings deposits.  Interest rates for short term loans, financed by
short term debt, can be raised if the rates for borrowed fund
increase.  The same applies for companies with conservative financial
management.
30 year mortgages protect borrowers from interest rate increases.  New
borrowers may have to pay more, but the existing ones are not
immediately affected.
Interest rates do not instantaniously jump 2 percent.
Sure, there will be borrowers and maybe lenders that get caught, those
who ignored the old rule to borrow long and lend short term.  And the
government may make this mistake itself, but it can print money.  That
leads to inflation, of course, but probably not to an "economic
meltdown".

Impact on individuals, families and small businesses?
Same rule as for the banks:  don't borrow short term (credit card) for
longer term investments.  Take an installment loan, maybe at a higher
rate, but one that is locked for the term of the loan.
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: chatnoirseul-ga on 12 Sep 2005 20:28 PDT
 
>>pafalafa-ga<< [chatnoirseul-ga]

>>Thanks for responding in such concrete fashion to the suggestion I
made below.  I wrote it tongue in cheek, and I hope it didn't come
across as snide...<

[No, no...realize the question was fuzzy - just didn?t know how to
phrase the question - an indication of why we need help...]

>>If there's an economic meltdown, people lose their jobs, tighten their
belts, focus on essentials, postpone school, dentistry, medical care
and all sorts of other things, and if things get really bad, then they
fall into the underclass in America that tries to live off the
so-called safety net as best they can.  The stress of the situation
can be awful, and can lead to an increase in both personal unrest
(breakdowns), family unrest (violence) as well as social unrest
(crime, riots).<<

[This looks promising.  Some more detail would help. Are some kinds of
jobs more likely to be shed than others?  What would be the impact on
city services - police, fire, public health?  Would municipalities
face bankruptcy?  If inflation increases would barter become the norm?
 Would banks call in mortgages?  Eject people who could not make
mortgage payments? Presumably maintenance would be favored over new
purchases? Are bank failures in the picture?  Professional sports? ]

[If we could get an outline within which to organize individual
aspects of the scene that would be a help. ]

Comment by myoarin-ga: This seems to be on a more abstract level...
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: pafalafa-ga on 12 Sep 2005 20:40 PDT
 
chatnoirseul-ga,

See my Request for Clarification (above).

paf
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: myoarin-ga on 13 Sep 2005 19:23 PDT
 
Here is the article:
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2005w18/msg00287.htm

which is a popular topic on blogs vs Bush, and here is an article
questioning David Gross's thesis:

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7437
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: wengland-ga on 15 Sep 2005 12:05 PDT
 
2 point bump in rates does not make an economic meltdown.  That just
means folks eat ground beef instead of steak.

120 point bump, annually (See: Argentina), now *that* was a meltdown. 
4-digit inflation, 15 to 20% decline in GDP year over year.  Man. 
Alsmost as good as the 1923 German hyperinflation - 1 mart to
1-billion marks for the same product, in less than a year.
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: pafalafa-ga on 16 Sep 2005 13:20 PDT
 
Thank you for the kind and generous...and amazingly fast...feedback. 
It's much appreciated.

If anything new occurs to you on this, you're always welcome to post a
Comment here, and I'll be sure to see it.

paf
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: sandiego7-ga on 26 Jan 2006 11:22 PST
 
For a great article on the true direction of the real estate market as
authored by a top San Diego real estate broker, visit:
http://www.downtown-san-diego-real-estate.com/san-diego-real-estate-article.htm
Subject: Re: Economic meltdown
From: chatnoirseul-ga on 26 Jan 2006 15:46 PST
 
Thanks, sandiego7

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