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Subject:
Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
Category: Relationships and Society > Cultures Asked by: archae0pteryx-ga List Price: $9.16 |
Posted:
24 Sep 2005 16:47 PDT
Expires: 24 Oct 2005 16:47 PDT Question ID: 572155 |
Year: 1310. Place: Lowlands of NW France. Seating for worshipers: pews? backless benches? stools? chairs? Material: wood? if so, what kind? For bonus points: would you sit there or elsewhere if you were waiting for your turn in the confessional? Note to researcher: If you are able to answer questions about the physical appearance of a specific church in Bethune, please post a comment and I will address a question to you. Thanks. Thank you, Archae0pteryx | |
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Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
Answered By: scriptor-ga on 25 Sep 2005 03:23 PDT Rated: |
Thank you, Tryx. I'm glad to know that I could help you. As for the question whether people kneeled on the floor for prayer: No, they did not. Actually, they prayed standing. While one could kneel down in an act of individual devoutness, the normal worshipper would pray in a standing position. All the best, Scriptor | |
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archae0pteryx-ga
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Thank you, Scriptor. You are a standard-setter. I truly appreciate your way of giving everything asked for and then something more. Tryx |
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Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: tlspiegel-ga on 24 Sep 2005 20:43 PDT |
Hi archae0pteryx, Perhaps some of this will be helpful to you. "The historical particulars are hard to pin down. But the custom of praying on a string of beads was already common in the 12th century. Anyone who has done so intuitively understands the tactile appeal of praying with the hands, as well as hearts and voices. Buddhists, Sikhs and Muslims had long used beads to count certain prayers that were repeated. http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0803.asp ========= "Labyrinth reshapes a 12th-century ritual for the 21st century. Its maze-like path takes you on a symbolic journey, creates space to unwind and think - in particular about our relationships with ourselves, one another, our planet and God." [edit] "Labyrinths were a feature of many medieval cathedrals - one of the best remaining examples is found in Chartres Cathedral in northern France. Unlike a maze they have only one path - there are no dead ends. People walk the labyrinth slowly, as an aid to contemplative prayer and reflection, as a spiritual exercise, or as a form of pilgrimage." [edit] "Meeting God in the middle The labyrinth is a maze-like path similar to those designed into the floors of European cathedrals during the Middle Ages. Christians of that time would walk the labyrinth to aid their contemplative prayer and reflection. The labyrinths fell into disuse, and most were eventually forgotten or destroyed." Best regards, tlspiegel |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: myoarin-ga on 24 Sep 2005 21:15 PDT |
"How's Tryx" ;) I just canceled this before posting, but after your Sandwich comment (thanks), I'll venture to add to the above: Labyrinths - "a symbolic journey" - were sort of a mini-pilgrimage. I think I got that from my guide to Chartres cathedral. Regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 24 Sep 2005 21:37 PDT |
Ah--labyrinths! I've read about them and seen pictures. Thank you both, tlspiegel and Myoarin. I might have a very nice use for one of those in the next chapter. I don't suppose we know if the Church of St. Vaast had one--? The extra information about a rosary or mala is helpful too--thanks, tl. Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: tlspiegel-ga on 24 Sep 2005 22:31 PDT |
Ya' never know what you might be incorporating into your book so here's some more for you. If it's helpful - Good! If not, just disregard. :) The Gothic style spread from the area around Paris, the Île de France, in the middle of the twelfth century and soon became the dominant form of church architecture in northern Europe. The construction of a large church in a medieval town was often a decades- or centuries-long project, requiring the raising of vast sums and creating employment for hundreds of craftsmen and laborers. The buildings themselves were used for education, government, and administration, as well as being centers of worship and veneration of relics. http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:plT2tj6y9pUJ:college.hmco.com/history/west/mosaic/chapter6/+middle+ages+france+churches&hl=en ========= Neverthless these two features are intrinsic elements in the Gothic style. They make it possible for the building to become a lightweight skeleton of stone, into which decorative features may be inserted. The features characteristic of a Gothic church include large windows, bringing in colour as well as light through the medium of stained glass. On the end walls of transept or nave there is now space for a particularly glorious innovation - the great circular openings known (from the petal-like arrangement of their stonework) as rose windows. The two most striking exterior details of Gothic cathedrals are the tall recessed porches, rising to a high peak and providing ample surfaces for sculpture; and the so-called flying buttresses, in which the sideways thrust of a wall is contained by delicate filaments of stone (as if some masonic spider has been at work on the building). The Gothic style first appears in France in the mid-12th century. It soon becomes a much wider phenomenon. All the great medieval cities of Europe have Gothic buildings, unless destroyed by war or other disaster. Nevertheless the earliest and greatest achievements are in France, during a relatively short period from the mid-12th to mid-13th century. It makes sense to describe the movement through the best French examples. (English Gothic, though known for its three distinct periods, is closely related to the French.) The one great exception within the tradition is Italian Gothic, which needs a section of its own - for the colourful flamboyance of its churches, and the exceptional beauty of its secular buildings. St Denis and Chartres: 12th - 13th century AD On 11 June 1144 a distinguished company assembles in the new abbey church of St Denis, near Paris. The church has been built during the previous few years by Suger, the energetic abbot, who entered this abbey some fifty years ago as a bright 10-year-old from a poor family. He has since risen to a position of power as the confidant of the king, Louis VII. Today Louis and his queen are in the congregation to consecrate Suger's new church. When they admire the tall pointed arches of the choir and apse, and the windows full of stained glass (including an image of the abbot himself presenting a window), they are marvelling at the birth of the Gothic style. At this same time, in the 1140s, a famous movement begins in Chartres, the city now known for the finest of all Gothic cathedrals. Chartres has an outstanding relic - the tunic which the Virgin Mary is supposed to have been wearing at the time of the Annunciation. It inspires a sense of deep devotion in visiting pilgrims. Construction of a new west front, to enlarge the cathedral, is under way. From about 1145 ordinary people of all classes lend a hand, dragging heavy wagons of stone from the quarry to the cathedral. Known as the 'cult of carts', this fashion spreads to other cities of France as an expression of Christian piety. Fifty years later this pious effort at Chartres seems to be divinely rewarded. When the rest of the old cathedral is destroyed in a fire of 1194, the west façade - with its two great towers, and the triple entrance flanked by superb sculptures - miraculously survives (as does the Virgin's tunic). The cathedral authorities, gathering in the funds of the faithful, are inspired to build behind this façade an entire new cathedral in the Gothic style. The soaring interior, with its vertical lines unbroken from the ground to the rib vaulting of the roof, is completed by 1222. The great windows are as yet blank spaces intersected by stone tracery. By 1240 they are filled with a blazing display of stained glass. Chartres cathedral survives today as an outstanding example of three different aspects of Gothic - architecture, sculpture and stained glass. It is also a testament to the wealth and the energy generated by two closely linked passions of the Middle Ages, the cult of the relic and the love of pilgrimage. Chartres is the large and public expression of this medieval impulse. An exquisite miniature version of the same theme is constructed in the years immediately following the completion of Chartres. The Sainte Chapelle in Paris, housing its own relic, refines the glories of full-scale Gothic to something more like a jewelled casket. Sainte Chapelle: AD 1243-1248 Any important relic in the Middle Ages is put on display to be venerated by pilgrims. In 1239 the king of France acquires a relic of such significance that he creates, to contain it, a perfect miniature Gothic church. Western knights, occupying Constantinople since the fourth crusade, have been pawning some of the holiest Byzantine treasures to pay their armies. Louis IX, the king of France, redeems three of them from Venetian money-lenders. His greatest acquisition is the Crown of Thorns. Included in the same lot are a fragment of the True Cross and the head of the Holy Lance which pierced Christ's side. To house these relics, Louis builds a new chapel in his palace on an island in the Seine - the Ile de la Cité, in the heart of Paris. The surprising outer shape of the building, unusually tall for its size, is because the king's apartments are on the first floor of the palace. He wants to be able to walk straight into his chapel. It occupies only the upper half of the structure. This Gothic gem is completed in a very short time, between 1243 and 1248. Its interior - more glass than stone, with every panel of the windows stained and every inch of stone painted or gilded - is one of the marvels of the Middle Ages. http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=1533&HistoryID=ab27 ========= The Trouvères and the Troubadours Popular music, usually in the form of secular songs, existed during the Middle Ages. This music was not bound by the traditions of the Church, nor was it even written down for the first time until sometime after the tenth century. Hundreds of these songs were created and performed (and later notated) by bands of musicians flourishing across Europe during the 12th and 13th centuries, the most famous of which were the French trouvères and troubadours. The monophonic melodies of these itinerant musicians, to which may have been added improvised accompaniments, were often rhythmically lively. The subject of the overwhelming majority of these songs is love, in all its permutations of joy and pain. One of the most famous of these trouvères known to us (the great bulk of these melodies are by the ubiquitous "Anonymous") is Adam de la Halle (ca. 1237-ca. 1286). Adam is the composer of one of the oldest secular music theater pieces known in the West, Le Jeu de Robin et Marion. He has also been identified as the writer of a good many songs and verses, some of which take the form of the motet, a piece in which two or more different verses (usually of greatly contrasted content and meter) are fit together simultaneously, without regard to what we now consider conventional harmonies. Such a piece is De ma dame vient! by this famous trouvère. Although secular music was undoubtedly played on instruments during the Middle Ages, instrumental dance music didn't come into its own until the later Renaissance. http://www.ipl.org/div/mushist/middle/index.htm#organum Best regards, tlspiegel |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: answerfinder-ga on 25 Sep 2005 02:55 PDT |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: myoarin-ga on 25 Sep 2005 05:42 PDT |
Hi Tryx, Why do some of us love your questions? The church of St. Vaast in Bethune was rebuilt in the 1920s. Bang! Sorry about that. But that was after the destruction in WW I. Even worse, Charles V moved the church in the 1500s, as you can read on the first sight below. 25 hectares, the size of the walled town earlier, would be 500x500 meteres. http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fr-62-be.html http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/background/medieval-wool.htm http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/flandern_grafschaft/robert_3_von_bethune_graf_von_flandern_+_1322.html The last one tells about Robert of Bethune, local ruler at that time. Here are sites with plans and photos of several Romaneque churches, probably much larger than St. Vaast, and following a verbal description: http://www.coco.cc.az.us/apetersen/_ART201/romanesque_arch.htm http://mynormandy.home.att.net/regards-pierre.html http://www.frommers.com/destinations/paris/0062036330.html The timeline site maybe is beneath you by now: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/07/euwf/ht07euwf.htm Scriptor may correct me on the following (and so much the better). :) As to your idea of a statue or basrelief in the vestibule: First, I don't think there would be one, looking at the plans linked. Second, I don't think it fits with Romanesque and Gothic church furnishing. The patron saint (Vaast built the first church in Bethune in the 6th c.) would have the place of honor, either representation at the main altar or in the primary side altar. His grave would probably have been in the crypt or under a gravestone at the front of the church. Sorry about that too. But the bright side is that you can envision the church as you wish with no fear of contradiction. Regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: scriptor-ga on 25 Sep 2005 05:53 PDT |
Dear Tryx, I just found out that St. Vaast, despite its Gothic appearance, was built at its present location after 1533 and was not completed before 1611, when the belfry was finished. So it can, alas, not be used for a story set in the 14th century. I'll see if there is a church in Bethune that fits your needs. Greetings, Scriptor |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 25 Sep 2005 11:41 PDT |
Wow, you guys are something else. Amazing! I am starting to feel like this book is a team effort. Your GA pseudonyms are going to look funny on the author's acknowledgments page, but if my book ever sees print, they're going to be there. (Yes, I am keeping a list, and have been since last November, when all this started.) Many thanks for all the great information, both contracted for and gratis. tl, if you are guessing that information sparks ideas, you are right. I have just been thinking about a scene in which the troubled priest is walking the labyrinth in meditation, trying to steady his mind, and my main character approaches and walks right across it... Now you suggest a troubador! Yes! I will save a troubador for the third book. (There are three books in the series. The focal character in the third is kind of a 14th-century hippie. A troubador would fit right in--and provide lots of narrative possibilities by virtue of his profession.) Myoarin, you are a gem. Many thanks for all your contributions. (Why DO you love my questions? I honestly don't know and often worry that I am just being a nuisance.) As for the church of St. Vaast, I have this information (and similar found elsewhere): The church of St Vaast was originally consecrated in 539, later it was given to the Dean of the Canons of Rouen by Richard the Lionheart: the current choir, transept and spire date back to the XIII century. http://www.visitfrance.co.uk/accommodation.cfm?i=4724 I don't know why I couldn't use it in 1310. As long as it was there in 1310, what happened to it later is immaterial, isn't it? I don't need to be able to see it today. I read that it was rebuilt in its original style, so I could take a descriptive cue from that. I thought that the fact that it can no longer be seen as it was would give me a lot of freedom. The only problem would be if it were not actually there in Bethune at all before the rebuilding, but located somewhere else, and I could not find clear information on that. Scriptor, if you do have another church to suggest, I will be glad to hear of it and will post a separate question for your answer. No wood carving of St. Vaast, ok. (Sigh.) Something else is needed in the vestibule, then, when my focal character is staring past the friend's shoulder and asking a pained question. Answerfinder, thanks for recommending a title, and I'll put it on my library list. My problem is, though, that I have set myself a rather challenging task, having to learn something new for just about every paragraph I write. I am working in my small hours after attending to work and chores and medical concerns, and I can't read whole books for every scene or I will never get through this. That's why I come here for help--and help I do find, even though some of my specific questions have languished disappointingly. If all else fails, I will make something up, and knowledgeable reviewers can point out my errors. I've never heard of a (2nd ed., rev.) treatment for a novel, but why not? Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: myoarin-ga on 25 Sep 2005 16:37 PDT |
Dear Tryx, Thanks for your kind words. Actually, I know why I love your questions (but I just deleted four lines of explanation :) As to your acknowledgements; Scriptor has suggested somewhere else that GA could release our names, but there is no hurry. I also found that site with the hotel, but I think that that is a different church in a little village, but use it as a model. There seems to be another St. Vaast church near the WW I cemetery. The reference I found with Charles V, suggested that he had the church rebuilt in Bethune, probably at the present Place du St. Vaast, but I couldn't find a map that showed the church. Scriptor has already explained that it is not the 14th c. one, and I cannot imagine that the Place refers now to where the original church stood. The church of the local patron saint would have been the main church in town, otherwise we would have read about another one. I hope Scriptor agrees. Don't tell us, but what kind of a problem does your focal character have? If it is his conscience, then perhaps he and his friend could still be outside the church (ain't no vestibule anyway) with him glancing up at the carved scene above the door: the Last Judgement or God Omnicient and Omnipotent - whatever speaks to his bad conscience - if that's the problem. More details on request. Labyrinths: here's the dope. Seems unlikely that St. V. would have had one: http://home.speedfactory.net/bsp2323/background.htm Maybe your priest can just be pacing back and forth, and your (tl's) hippy troubador thoughtlessly cross his path. It sure is a shame that you couldn't make your trip in June. Regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 25 Sep 2005 21:33 PDT |
Hi, Myoarin, I'm afraid Chartres is way out of range for my story. But I don't know why I coudn't put a labyrinth into a church that's not there any more. Sorry, nope, no story details. You'll just have to wait for the hardcover edition. I hope we all live so long. But the character is looking straight ahead, not up. In general people don't look up much anyway. By the way, I made good use of the gold coins you gave me and also the beer. Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: scriptor-ga on 26 Sep 2005 11:12 PDT |
Dear Tryx, I've been to the library today. My attempts to find out about Béthune and its churches failed miserably. The town seems to be so unattractive and unimportant that neither tourist guides, nor books on art, architecture, history or cultural history bother to mention it. But: Only 29 kilometers south of Béthune is the town of Arras. Arras used to have an impressive cathedral, one of the earliest Gothic churches, constructed between 1030 and 1396, so it would fit in your time frame. The cathedral of Arras was destroyed in the French Revolution - and it was also dedicated to St. Vaast, just like the church in Béthune. Would that be a useful alternative for your stroy? Scriptor |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 26 Sep 2005 21:33 PDT |
Scriptor, Once again I thank you for your efforts to go above and beyond. And your suggestion of Arras is a very good one. But Arras already plays a significant part in my story, and I chose Bethune precisely because it is a relatively short distance northwest of Arras on the way to the coast. The Abbey of St. Vaast in Arras also has a minor part to play. If I had made my trip this summer, I would have visited the town myself and seen what I need to see. As it is, I am relying on a combination of research and imagination, and I am also leaving some blank spots to fill in later. I can do that with things that my plot is not directly dependent on. Looks like I am going to have to invent a church in Bethune, or at least do my own outfitting of the one that was there. If all else fails, I will find somebody who lives there and plague him with questions of just the sort you'd recognize. Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: myoarin-ga on 27 Sep 2005 18:02 PDT |
Dear Tryx, That's me: banker and beer drinker! :) Labyrinths: I was thinking that they first appeared in Gothic times, but have no documentation for this, so have one; its your church. :) This site will test your German or Google's translation skill. All about St. Vaast. What attracted me, was the line about his having led a bear from his church. Let's not worry about which one. A bear representing heathen and evil thoughts. Taking some liberties with Romanesque church furnishings, I could let a wooden statue of the supposed bear be near - inside - the entrance to the church as a warning - and that thing you want your character to see (whereby you may have to add some psychological projection to give it the right role). Let it be a few centuries old, worn almost to unrecognition, but the locals know what it represented. Maybe it has been so worn by being scourged on the eve of St. V's holy day in former times. http://www.heiligenlexikon.de/start.html?BiographienV/Vedastus_Vaast_Gaston_oder_Foster_von_Arras.htm Scriptor will tell us that this is entirely fantasy - and be correct - but none of us was there, and lots of churches claim unique and strange items. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15248a.htm The above site tells that St. V's reliques are in Arras (and more), so they won't be in "your" church, which after Scriptor's last comment I would envisage as a smaller, aging Romaneque edifice, considering the minor importance of Bethune. This one tells about Arras, with my interest in textiles, I immediately spotted the bit about tapestries, which certainly were being made before 1350. http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/towns/arras.htm and this too: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0422/is_3_82/ai_66304030/pg_6 Before I get too carried away, best wisher, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: tlspiegel-ga on 27 Sep 2005 21:45 PDT |
Hi archae0pteryx, Oooh... I love that! "tl, if you are guessing that information sparks ideas, you are right. I have just been thinking about a scene in which the troubled priest is walking the labyrinth in meditation, trying to steady his mind, and my main character approaches and walks right across it... Now you suggest a troubador! Yes! I will save a troubador for the third book. (There are three books in the series. The focal character in the third is kind of a 14th-century hippie. A troubador would fit right in--and provide lots of narrative possibilities by virtue of his profession.)" You go girl! :) Best regards, tlspiegel |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 01 Oct 2005 15:23 PDT |
tl, Glad you liked that! Feel free to keep 'em coming. I wish I could ask you in particular to validate the authenticity of the confession scene--or correct my missteps--but I am not going to post any of it here. Myoarin, Your idea of a carved bear serving symbolically as a bearer (ha!) of ills and scourged beyond recognition is brilliant. I see that I am going to need a church that no longer stands, Romanesque, with an invented name, a labyrinth, and a carved wooden effigy. But don't worry, I won't put rows of pews in it no matter how much I'd like to. I would like to award you naming honors--for the church, the effigy, or both (a carved bear could be in this church in honor of St. V. even if his eponymous church was elsewhere). Please tell me what it or they are to be called, and it is done. Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: myoarin-ga on 02 Oct 2005 08:50 PDT |
Dear Tryx, That is what I love about your questions - a little research and the chance to speculate! Not to mention the personal and enthusiastic comments! Well, the bear belongs to myths of St. Vaast, so I think it should still be his church, which no one can question - no need to find another name. It was there, and the one in Arras is too. There is no problem with having more than one. (In a moment of egoism, I was going to suggest a St. Charon [River Styx and all that] to get "my oar in", but we better forget that.) Those who could seriously question "my" bear effigy aren't alive. Hey, maybe it was an earlier heathen effigy that was later interpreted to be that bear. Maybe the ("your") locals referred to it as "Urs", their knowing, of course, that it is was a counterpart to "St Ursula" (whom the RC church no longer recognizes), maybe always with a slight shudder at seeing or mentioning this heathen effigy. If you really want to get carried away, you could let it be hammered full of nails by persons who did so as penance after confessing to blasphemy. (Did I say anything about speculation?!) :-) Iron nails in those days had a greater intrinsic value, so doing so would not have been just the public act of penance: "Oooh, did you see that he had to put another nail in old Urs?!" I was going to suggest that I doubt that a labyrinth would have been in an old Romanesque church, but I don't want to disappoint you, if you think it is necessary. Oh ... maybe your priest can have developed his own, a path on the randomly laid paving stones that leads from one to another until has he completed his rosary. This really appeals to me after some personal thoughts, recalling years of wondering about the shortest way to sweep the lines of a tennis court; the priest's mind wandering from the prayers of his rosary as he for the umpteenth time paces slowly over the paving stones in one area of the church. More speculation ...! Regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 02 Oct 2005 12:08 PDT |
Myoarin, A lot to think about here! Your comments are cornucopias. Looking here http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/visit/visit-arras-beaux-arts.htm I see an indication that the bear (or wolf, said the German text) incident occurred in an old Roman site at Arras and not where the church is in Béthune. So I think I could use it, especially if there were a bear tooth or bone or something kept as a relic. I still like the idea of inventing a church (but no St. Charon, Myo; this is not a place for humor of that sort, thank you). It would also be nice to know if St. Vaast did have a day named in his honor. Depending on when it falls in the year, I could use that too. Haven't looked yet. The fictitious church was probably destroyed by, um, maybe fire, in some later century, but long before modern history and photography. Its fate isn't important to my tale, but I still like to know these things. Maybe there's a shopping center there now, with an hypermarché. The idea of a virtual labyrinth is wonderful. Thank you. Giving this priest a little case of OCD would make him all the more interesting. He is not my focal character, but he is important to the story. How long does saying the rosary take? Looks like I am going to have to read up on (St.) Ursula too. Thanks for the tip. I don't know much RC lore. I think the bear's name might work better as an oblique reference instead of a direct namesake, unless there is a reason to connect her with this legend. But "Urs" is straight Latin and doesn't require a tie-in to a dehaloed saint, nicht wahr? The iron nails are another fabulous idea, very rich with possibility, but I'm afraid that theme would develop into too much of a digression from my storyline. I'll keep it in mind, though. There have already been a great many surprises. Thank you, Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: myoarin-ga on 02 Oct 2005 18:56 PDT |
Hi Tryx, I thought the nails were going a bit far, but pride of authorship after having dreamt them up - couldn't leave them just in the back of my mind. St Vaast is not even mentioned in my "Lexikon der Namen und Heilgen" (preface by a Jesuit), so I expect that he is not really one, just of very local recognition these days, but back then considered to be such. Ursula ("little bear") has a much stronger place in the canon of saints, despite her being demoted: 4th or 5th c., patron saint of Cologne with 4 columns in the book, but you don't need her. I just mentioned her to play on the name Urs (bear, still a male given name in Switzerland). So I can't give you a saint's day for him, though the locals may have one (many parishes celebrate their saint's day with a service and a greater or smaller street fete). If you want the wooden bear effigy to have teeth, good idea. The still remaining ones could be the only thing that still suggests his entity. Your link was in English, and only refered to a bear. Name of the church in Bathune: I'd say, stick with St Vaast. It was there, and Scriptor found none other, so why invent a fictitious one? Glad you like my virtual labyrinth. I really think someone pacing around again and again in one area would begin to find a pattern. Rosary: http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/visit/visit-arras-beaux-arts.htm Even at the rapid fire rate that I mentioned before - two breaths per prayer - it is 50 "Hail Marys" and a few other things, and then if "you" are really devote, you can do it four times to include the four types of graces. So, your priest can tell his beads for a long time. Regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 02 Oct 2005 21:15 PDT |
Myoarin, St. Vaast = St. Vedastus or Vedast, and I found that his feast day is 6 February, and he is also honored in Arras on 25 July and 1 October. And I do not believe that the church honoring his name was the only church in Bethune. It was just the only one that warranted mention as a point of interest. The churches in Bethune are famous for being boring. So I am going to have another one. If you prefer not to name it, that's okay. The German site I mentioned was the one you sent me to. Regards, Tryx |
Subject:
Re: Seating in a medieval church or cathedral
From: myoarin-ga on 03 Oct 2005 04:57 PDT |
Tryx, You are right, of course. I failed to check the Latin version of his name, and he is a saint and forgot that I had once known more. The persent churches are boring, apparently, the town had a hard life, 3 earthquakes in the 11th c., war and pestilence and fire. Here are a couple of sites about Bethune which you may already of found, very interesting the cheritable brotherhoods, including some nmaes of churches and chapels: St Pry (or Prix), "St Eloi", St Barthélémy, and St Vierge (Virgin). http://www.ville-bethune.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=3 http://www.nordmag.fr/sommairegb.htm http://www.saintpatrickdc.org/ss/0224.htm (3/4 down this site, you can read about Prix, but don't let me waste your time.) I would pick the Holy Virgin on the assumption that it would have been a larger church and that it would be easier to "furnish", probably rebuilt after the earthquakes. The most notable person to come from Bethune in the 14th c was Jean Buridan, born 1298, 1327 rector of the Univ. of Paris. Regards, Myoarin |
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