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Subject:
Can bullets really skip off water?
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: alexthegood-ga List Price: $20.00 |
Posted:
27 Sep 2005 15:58 PDT
Expires: 27 Oct 2005 15:58 PDT Question ID: 573463 |
According to the 4H BB Rifle Safety Guide, "Bullets can skip off of the water similar to skipping a flat rock on water. Never shoot at water." Can bullets really skip off water? What is the relationship between angle of entry, shape and mass of bullet, surface tension, and the ability for a bullet to skip off water? Is there any research or antedotal evidence that shows that bullet can actually skip off water? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: qed100-ga on 27 Sep 2005 17:03 PDT |
Sure, bullets can skip off the surface of water. But the angle of incidence (with respect to the water's surface) must become shallower as the bullet's energy (mv^2/2) increases. This is because the higher the projectile's energy, the more penetrating it is. It's much like with light radiation. Infrared (IR) can be reflected off a telescope mirror at a much higher incidence angle than x-rays. X-rays are of a much higher energy than IR, and so tend to penetrate rather than reflect. An x-ray mirror must be arranged such that the x-radiation will strike it at a very slight angle. And so it is with bullets. The faster & more massive the bullet, the more that it'll tend to break the water's surface, so the angle at which it strikes the water must approach closer to parallelness. |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: hfshaw-ga on 28 Sep 2005 16:11 PDT |
The fact that projectiles can "skip" or ricochet off water has been know since at least the 16th century. "The Art of Shooting in Great Ordnaunce" by William Bourne, which was published around 1578, clearly describes and diagrams the conditions necessary for the ricochet of cannon shot. This technique was used to increase the range of cannons, as well as increase the damage inflicted on the target (hitting near the water line is more damaging than being hit by a decending shot). Empirically, it has been found that for non-spinning spherical projectiles, the critical angle (measured in degrees from the surface of the water) for ricochet is approximately given by: 18/D^(1/2) where D is the specific gravity (the density relative to water) of the projectile. Non-spinning projectiles encountering the water surface at angles greater than the critical angle will simply enter the water; projectiles encountering the water surface at lower angles will ricochet. A theoretical, but still approximate, treatment (IM Hutchings, 1976) gives the result: 17.3/D^(1/2) which is reasonably close to the empirical relationship. The analogous result for a non-spinning cylindrical projectile is: 18.7/D^(1/2) so spherical and cylindrical projectiles behave pretty close to the same if they are not spinning. If the projectile is spinning, the problem becomes much more complex. Spinning spheres can actually penetrate into the water a distance many times their diameter, and still reexit, sometimes back in the same direction they came from! (This has been shown experimentally in the paper by Shlien listed below). A discussion of the effects of spin is given in the paper by Hutchings. Note that the relationships above do not include a dependence on the velocity of the projectile. The velocity only becomes important at low speeds (less than ~300 ft/sec). Experimental results on the effect of velocity on the critical angle (see paper by Soliman and others) show that the critical angle is lower for slower speed projectiles, and approaches the theoretical/empirical relationship of ~18/D^1/2 as the speed increases. In the case of a BB gun, typical projectile velocities are between 250 and 1000 ft/sec, so the dependence of the critical angle on velocity will be small. References. (Those with digital object identifier (doi) numbers are available electronically on the Web, though you may need to have a subscription to the journal to see the full text. You can use doi "resolver" at the bottom of the page at <http://www.doi.org/> to try to retrieve these articles.) Johnson W; Reid SR (1975) Ricochet of spheres off water. J Mech Eng Science 17: 71?81. IM Hutchings, 1976, The ricochet of spheres and cylinders from the surface of water. Intl. J. of Mechanical Sci. 18 pp 243-47. doi:10.1016/0020-7403(76)90006-0 AS Soliman, SR Reid and W Johnson, 1976, The effect of spherical projectile speed in ricochet off water and sand. Intl. J. of Mechanical Sci. 18 pp 279-84. doi:10.1016/0020-7403(76)90029-1 T Miloh and Y Shukron (1991) Ricochet off water of spherical projectiles. J. Ship Research 35, pp. 91?100 DJ Shlien, 1994, Unexpected ricochet of spheres off water. Experiments in Fluids 17, pp 267-71. doi:10.1007/BF00203046 W. Johnson, 1998, Ricochet of non-spinning projectiles, mainly from water Part I: Some historical contributions. Intl. J. of Impact Engineering v21, 1-2, pp 15-24. doi:10.1016/S0734-743X(97)00032-8 W. Johnson, 1998, The ricochet of spinning and non-spinning spherical projectiles, mainly from water. Part II: An outline of theory and warlike applications. Intl. J. of Impact Engineering v21, 1-2, pp 25-34. doi:10.1016/S0734-743X(97)00033-X |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: hfshaw-ga on 28 Sep 2005 20:41 PDT |
...one more thing... qed100's comment is not correct. The critical angle does *not* depend on the mass of the projectile, it depends on the density of the projectile (relative to the material it is impacting, water in this case). Furthermore, for water, the higher the velocity of the projectile, the *larger* the critical angle, up to an asymptotic limit of the empirical relationship. This is the opposite of what he stated. |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: qed100-ga on 29 Sep 2005 08:56 PDT |
"qed100's comment is not correct" Yes, you're right. Thanks. But it seemed reasonable at the time from a theoretical point of view. :) |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: rossgmann-ga on 03 Oct 2005 20:14 PDT |
There was a story in the reader's digests several years ago about this New York City Police Officer (not sure if he was uniform of detective) who was following a car along one of the freeways when all of a sudden the vehicle went off to the right and crashed. The police officer went to assist and discovered that the female occupant was deceased. An autopsy revealed that she had been shot in the ear with a British Le-Enfield .303 calibre rifle. This matter was handed over to the homicide squad and who through a bit of luck discovered the owner of this rifle. He told the police that he was on New York Harbour in his boat and that he fired a shot, with this rifle, at a can or bottle floating on the water. The bullet skipped off the water and travelled 1500 yards went through the back window, which was down, of the victims vehicle killing her. It was believed that if the window had of been up she would not have beren killed because the bullet would have lost most of its power. I cannot recalled exactly what happened to the owner of the rifle. I know they tried to charged him with murded originally but I think the charged was reduced to discharged a firearm within city limits. Please bear in mind that I read this story between 20 & 30 years ago so some of the above may not be exactly right. (Please excuse any spelling errors) Kind regards Ross (Australia) |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: omnivorous-ga on 04 Oct 2005 03:24 PDT |
Ross -- It's interesting that you mention that story because I recall reading the original (uncondensed version) in The New Yorker. But because it was 20-30 years ago, I didn't think that I had enough to chase it down. Still, we know that the story of the NY detective made an impact on at least two of us! Best regards, Omnivorous-GA |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: helpfulperson-ga on 05 Oct 2005 11:48 PDT |
Don't forget the bouncing bombs that destroyed a German dam in world war II depicted in the film "the Dambusters". |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: myoarin-ga on 05 Oct 2005 13:53 PDT |
If anyone questions the previous comment, it's a fact, not just a film fantasy. I think it was the British that went to some effort to figure out how to skip bombs under defenses to breach dams in Germany - successfully. |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: qed100-ga on 05 Oct 2005 14:16 PDT |
"If anyone questions the previous comment, it's a fact, not just a film fantasy." I concur. The wartime dam busting project was a work of genius. |
Subject:
Re: Can bullets really skip off water?
From: ineverreply-ga on 13 Feb 2006 23:29 PST |
As far as BB guns are concerned as well as my own personal experience, I was at a lake with a few friends after a BB skirmish and only 2 of us could 'skip' bullets. The only difference between our guns were: 2 people had spring powered pistols without hop-up (could skip water) Everyone else had battery or gas rifles/pistols with hop-up(could barely) I think if you have no hop-up and you are using top-grade high-polished BB's then it is easy, however if you are using another type of gun with hop-up (usually between 270-450 >550fps) it will normally be going too fast with too much backspin. But... we did manage to make some gas pistols skip. I think this is because of the combination of high-polished BB's and Silicone. The Silicone in green gas (silicone propane) would make BB's pretty slick, hence the possibility of skipping. As for real bullets, I would imagine that they would have to hit the water at a very small angle to ricochet. But I do imagine it entirely possible. Especially with an old musket with thier round rounds. |
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