At our 25-employee publishing company, here in the Operations
department, I and my other lowly typesetter coworker perform what our
boss calls "pagination," when a book is being prepped for the printer. To
make a very long story short, it involves (1) numbering each
cotton-pickin' page of the finished proof, by hand, in pencil, from
the title page to the ad at the very end (recently we finished a
1424-page book!). These numbers correspond with the sequential numbers
on a Pagination Form. The Pagination Form depicts all the eight-page
signatures of the book. On this form we write---by hand---the *actual*
page numbers of the book (e.g., 1-1, 1-2, 1-3...; 2-1, 2-2, 2-3...)
and make sure they correspond with the sequential numbers. I have no
clue whether or not this is a decipherable explanation; I've never
spelled it out before!

Every time my typesetter-mate and I go through this incredibly
tedious, mind-numbing, time-consuming task, we ask ourselves, "How
could we do this BETTER?" And here is (finally) where my question
comes in. I have to wonder how other publishing companies do this. I
can't believe the Big Boys use this process. Unless they hire lots of
clever chimpanzees to do it.

(1) What is this process called in the general publishing industry?
and (2) How do THEY do it?

I'm sure hoping that the answer to (2) will be something incredibly
clever and automated and fool-proof and smooth and easy. But I'll take
whatever the answer really is.

On our measly typesetter salaries, my friend and I can drum up $25 to
offer for an answer. If it turns out to take a lot of research and the
answer changes our lives the way we hope it will, we would consider it
an honor to raise the offer.

Thank you so very very very much.

---

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 28 Sep 2005 07:01 PDT

I hope you can get some help on this one, though I must confess, I'm
not quite sure how yet how to assist you.

One thing that would help us, I think is this:  WHY are you guys doing
this task?  Why do the pages have to have dual numbers?  Why do they
have to be entered by hand?

Eventually, the pages are numbered with actual type.  So why is the
preliminary step of numbering them by hand needed?  And why are two
overlapping numbering systems needed?  What happens later in the
process -- who uses the hand-written numbers, and for what purpose?

As one who has done his share of mind-numbingly tedious work, my
sympathies are with your guys.  Maybe knowing a bit more about the
procedures will help spark some thoughts about possible solutions.

Thanks,

pafalafa-ga

---

Clarification of Question by k8hayes-ga on 28 Sep 2005 11:56 PDT

I think it may be clearer if I explain (better, this time) that the
"dual numbering" (1-1, 1-2, 1-3, etc.) relates to our *actual* page
numbers. In other words, 1-1 is the first page of Chapter 1. The 5th
page of Chapter 9 would be 9-5. Like that. So we hand-number the pages
for the printer's benefit. We number them sequentially. On the
"pagination form," we write the *actual* page numbers, so that the
printer has a reference. For example, if you go to the pagination form
to find the 5th page of Chapter 12 (12-5), you'd find the sequential
page number. Let's see, here's a kind of e-drawing:

****************************
* 1-1 * 1-3  *  2-1 *  2-3 * 
*        *         *        *         *
*  1    *   3    *    5  *   7    *
***************************
* 1-2  *    /    * 2-2  * 2-4 *
*         *         *         *        *
*   2    *   4    *   6    *  8    *
****************************

where Ch. 1, in this case, has 3 pages. It's followed by a blank page
(sequential page 4). Then Ch. 2 starts (on sequential page 5), and it
has 4 pages. The theory here is that our printer can see that the
second page of Ch. 2 falls in sequential order at page 8.

Why this is so essential, I'm not exactly clear, but there it is. And
the reason we have to do it by hand, I'm assuming the boss wouldn't
trust some mechanical gadget not to make a mistake in the numbering.

What I'd like to do is present a good case for some sort of numbering
system that is automated some way. But first I have to prove that our
current system is entirely antiquated and unnecessary and, well, just
plain excrutiating.

Does that help? Would it help if I sent a sample sheet from the
pagination form? If the spacing gets screwed up on my lovely drawing,
try and line up the asterisks horizontally and vertically. They're
supposed to represent the rules of a table.

Whew!

---

Clarification of Question by k8hayes-ga on 29 Sep 2005 13:30 PDT

"IF this works, you are going to get callouses and they may put you
somewhere else because of the noise ..." Ha!

Yup, we've thought about a numbering machine. And I'm sure there's
some kind of program that can be written to handle numbering and
printing, to avoid hand-writing the numbers, but it's not as simple as
you might think. Such a program would have to have many many
if-then-elses! More clarification on that if you'd like, but...

*** I'm very interested to know how other publishing companies handle
this process. Maybe it would just be under the umbrella of prepping
the ms for the printer? ***

---

Clarification of Question by k8hayes-ga on 04 Oct 2005 05:21 PDT

Oh my dear Paf and Tryx and Myoarin! I'm so sorry I haven't been able
to read your stuff lately. In fact, I can't read it today either. I've
been working OT for weeks now, and there's no end in sight. My first
reaction is, you all certainly know more about this end of the process
than I do, so I will have to study your questions before I can answer
them. That's part of why I posted this: I don't know enough about it
to just google it on my own. Does that qualify as a Catch-22? Hm.

Thanks so much for helping us out. I promise to read your comments...
when, I can't exactly say!

k8

---

Clarification of Question by k8hayes-ga on 04 Oct 2005 05:24 PDT

One more clarification of my clarification of my clarification: Are
you guys sure it wouldn't help if I sent you a sample of this silly
pagination form? Can we email each other privately in this thing?

---

Request for Question Clarification by cynthia-ga on 10 Oct 2005 13:47 PDT

k8hayes,

Please do NOT post your email address.. Researchers are asked to NOT
answer any question where personal identifing information is contained
in the question. The reasoning is they don't want spammers
crawling/farming the site.

You can scan the form and upload it to a site for Researchers to
download. There are free file hosts, if you need one just ask.

~~Cynthia

---

Request for Question Clarification by cynthia-ga on 10 Oct 2005 13:50 PDT

Sorry...  Also, the editors do not want private interaction between
Researchers and Customers, they monitor quality, content, etc., --all
Questions, Answers, and Comments are public, in every sense of the
word.

---

Clarification of Question by k8hayes-ga on 21 Oct 2005 17:49 PDT

Cynthia, I promise not to do or receive any email. And I see in one of
these comments how to post a copy of the form, which I'll do soon.
Thanks, all!

Paf,

Signatures.  Little subgroups of pages.  Units in which they are
printed and bound.  Open a book and inspect the way it's assembled,
and you will see that it's made up of little groups of pages that are
printed and stitched together.  How that's done has to be worked out
before the presses roll.

Archae0pteryx

HI Tryx,
Yeah, a signature is the large sheet of paper on which several (2, 4,
8, 16) pages are printed in the order and orientation (head to foot)
so that when it is folded the pages are in proper order.  The "outer"
folds are trimmed off, and then you have a pamphlet, or a set of pages
to be sewn or glued with others to form a book.

Kate, you confused me now with your mention of chapters, but anyway,
this suggestion that I drafted before I read your clarification:

You are right, I did not entirely understand, but maybe a "numberer
stamp" could help do the job:

http://www.ontimesupplies.com/Numberers_Stamps_subsection_856_page_1.html
Look at the last couple, expensive, but can  

be set so that they might work for you.

http://www.markcbrown.co.uk/auto_num.htm

OR maybe a customized numberer could be made that counted the eight
pages before changing the prefix number for the signature (if I
understand correctly).

Apparently these stamps can be set to change after 2 or more hits, so
you could bash it on the proof and then on the pagination form.

Why can't the forms be printed by computer - or the numbers filled in
by a computer program that puts them in the right places?  It seems
like the pagination form for each book with the same signature would
have all the same numbers, just differing in length.

IF this works, you are going to get callouses and they may put you
somewhere else because of the noise ...

Let me know, Myoarin

Acrobat Pro will do this. You might need to use a plug-in like
QuiteImposing or Crackerjack to get the exact format you want, but
it's possible - it may just take some mucking about and
experimentation, but give it a whirl.

Now you have really gotten me curious.
So you have a loose-leaf collection of proof sheets; what does the
printer get as basis for his making the proofs?  I expect that he is
offset printing using data files given to him in some form.  If this
is so, I expect that he has software to sort out the task of arranging
the pages for the signatures if the data files include blank pages
where necessary  (maybe every chapter starting on a right-hand  - odd
numbered - page).
Do you know if uses your pagination, or to what extent he does?  Maybe
just as a control because blank pages are not included in proof
printing process?
Octopede suggests there is software to do what you want, maybe the
text files with the pagination prominently added to each page, so the
printer could look at that on screen rather than with a pile of paper.
I bet there is or could be designed software that took the text
file(s) and produced the signature layout with reduced sized pages,
either on screen or printed.

Or am I way off track?  I would hate to think that your boss is making
you provide something that is entirely superfluous, but it has
happened elsewhere, an outdated procedure continued when new
technology can (and maybe does) handle the task.
(If he doesn't trust numbering machines ... ?)

Go and buy someone at the printer a drink and ask.
Let us know, Myoarin

Kate,
we have to communicate here, but maybe you scan the form and download it.
Here are instructions borrowed from a posting to another question.

If you don't have your own website, then register and upload your
image at one of the following free sites, and then post the URL of the
image here.

<http://www.villagephotos.com> (limit 60,000 bytes per image) 
<http://www.deviantart.com> 
<http://www.usa-ezweb.com/ezfree> 
<http://www.imagemagician.com> (2 week free trial period)

I am still curious, Myoarin

Pagination can be complex, here's a good explanation:
http://www.grasshopperllc.com/help/PGSuser/pagination.html

This program (PageStream) is for Desktop Publishing, but I'll bet
there's something for whatever your company uses.