translate 3 phrases to latin

1 fleet's envy  ---as in a fleet of ships under one command
2 the fleet's envy
3 envy of the fleet

4 does "quarum" mean : they are jealous and we know it? or is that in
a different context?

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Request for Question Clarification by juggler-ga on 02 Oct 2005 19:10 PDT

Hi,
Latin doesn't use the definite article "the," so there'd be no
difference between #1 and #2.  Also, with respect to #3, the
possessive "fleet's" and "of the fleet" would also be translated the
same way in Latin. So, would a single translation be acceptable?

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Clarification of Question by helomech-ga on 02 Oct 2005 20:41 PDT

yes it will do fine but #4 must also be answered, i found it in a
dictionary and if i use it i want it to mean: they are jealous and we
know it.. if this is not the context intended by saying "quarum" then
i need too know how quarum is intended to be used. but as far as
fleets envy or envy of the fleet as long as it refers to "this ship is
the envy of all others" i am satisfyed, detailed response earns good
tip thank you

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Clarification of Question by helomech-ga on 02 Oct 2005 20:41 PDT

correction, detailed response earns tip, quick detailed response earns good tip

Hello.

For "the fleet's envy" or "envy of the fleet," I'd go with:

"Invidia Classis."

sources:

"invidia = envy"
source: Latin Word List
http://www.wvup.edu/Academics/humanities/Oldaker/master_latin_word_list_professor1.htm

"This envy, being in the Latin word invidia,"
http://www.bartleby.com/3/1/9.html


classis (genitive/possessive) - "of the fleet" 

source:

"classis, classis (f.)  fleet (of ships)"
http://www.quia.com/jg/23717list.html

"classis, classis, f.  fleet"
http://www.ncslatin.com/latinIIvoc14.html

Examples of the possessive usage:

"Horrea Classis... This Latin name means 'The Granaries of the Fleet'
http://www.roman-britain.org/places/arbeia.htm

" On the promontory of Miseno rose the residence of the "praefectus
classis" (the fleet's commander)."
http://www.icampiflegrei.it/Azienda%20Turismo/pozzuoli/articoli2001/giugno_ing.htm

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The word "quarum" is relative pronoun meaning "whose," or "of whom,"
or "of which." It is the feminine form, so the pronoun refers to
feminine nouns.

See:
Relative pronouns chart:
http://homepage.mac.com/geerlingguy/jjjcl/resource_files/pronouns.html

Relative pronoun
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1082147

"Lesson 26: Possesive Pronouns"
http://www.geocities.com/frcoulter/first/lesson26.html

The word "quarum" does NOT mean "they are jealous and we
know it," but I can understand why you might think that.  The
following appears on many Latin word lists:

"quarum : (fem. pl. gen.) their envy and jealousy, OF WHICH we know."
http://eserver.org/langs/latin-terms.txt
http://www.nd.edu/~archives/qqq.htm

In that context, though, only the capitalized "OF WHICH" refers to
quarum.  The rest of the words are just used as examples.  The lists
do the same thing with other pronouns just to give the reader an idea
of how the word is uses.  For example:
quae : (neut. pl. acc.) those things WHICH we must have
quibus : (neut. pl. dat.) the crimes FOR WHICH he was executed.
quorum : (masc. pl. gen.) the army, half OF WHICH was ill.

In all of these examples, the pronoun just means the capitalized
word(s) (e.g., which, for which, of which), not the whole phrase.

I hope this helps.

--------
search strategy:
invidia envy
classis fleet
"quarum of which"

Thanks.

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Clarification of Answer by juggler-ga on 03 Oct 2005 00:12 PDT

Sorry for the typo above:

"...how the word is USED."

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Request for Answer Clarification by helomech-ga on 03 Oct 2005 08:36 PDT

ok so that doesnt just mean "envy fleet" invidia classis?

because someone else suggested "invidia ab classicus" so this leads me
to beleive invidia classis may not be completely saying envy (OF THE)
fleet. would you still say invidia classis is a better choice then
invidia ab classicus?

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Clarification of Answer by juggler-ga on 03 Oct 2005 11:12 PDT

No, the "classis" is a third declension I-stem noun, so the nominative
AND the GENITIVE (possessive) case are the same (ending in -is).

classis -is f. - fleet
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/~lha/latin_lessons/declension/noun_3.html

The standard form is Latin dictionaries is to list the nominative and
genitive for nouns in that order:

"classis, classis (f.)  fleet (of ships)"
http://www.quia.com/jg/23717list.html

"classis, classis, f.  fleet"
http://www.ncslatin.com/latinIIvoc14.html

By listing "classis" as the second word in each of these examples,
they are indicating that "classis" is the genitive (possessive) case. 
This usage is seen in the examples cited above: "Horrea Classis" ("The
Granaries of the Fleet") and "praefectus classis" ("the fleet's
commander").


The word "ab" means "from a place" or "from a time" or "by the hands
of." It is not a substitute for the genitive (possessive) case, so it
would be inappropriate in this context.

I hope this helps.

perfect answer and clarification thank you

Thank for the tip!
-juggler

Thank = Thanks