According to H Trevor-Roper in 'The Last Days of Hitler', Ribbentrop
claimed at his trial in Nuremberg that German foreign intelligence was
supplied by 'thirty competing agencies'.

Trevor-Roper accepted Ribbentrop's claim as 'substantially true'.

Which agencies were these and to whom did each report?

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Request for Question Clarification by thx1138-ga on 23 Aug 2002 07:38 PDT

Hi probonopublico,

Thanks for the question.
When you mention "German foreign intelligence" are you refering to the
SD, Abwehr, or another agency?  ie. are you interested in all the
agencies that had agents in countries other than Germany, or do you
want a list of 'spy organizations' that were operating at that time
under the Nazi authorities?
By the way, I have been unable (so far!) to locate any reference to
Ribbentrops statement that German foreign intelligence was supplied by
'thirty competing agencies' and I have been searching the transcripts
of the trials for quite some time!

Thanks for the clarification :)

THX1138

---

Request for Question Clarification by thx1138-ga on 23 Aug 2002 09:29 PDT

Hello again,
I have now studied Von Ribbentrop´s testimony that he gave at the
trial.  The questioning of Ribbentrop started on the 93rd day of the
trial (28th March 1946) and continued until the the 97th day of the
trial (2nd of April 1946) I read some parts of the transcript and
couldn´t find any reference to the 'thirty competing agencies'  I
copied all the statements into an MS word document, this document is
121 pages long and 95,511 words long.  I then did a word search for
´agencies´ which returned just 3 results non of which were relevant, I
then did a word search for ´competing´ which returned no results,  I
then did a search for ´thirty´ which returned no results, I then did a
search for ´30´ which returned 97 hits all of which are dates or parts
of larger numbers.
Hmmmmm did he really say this at the Nuremberg trial?  I am not aware
that he gave any other testimony at the trial other than those
statements made between 28th March 1946 and 2nd of April 1946.
 
THX1138

---

Clarification of Question by probonopublico-ga on 23 Aug 2002 10:35 PDT

Hi (Again) thx1138-ga

Good to hear that you are on the case.

I was reading the book cited and was intrigued by the reference which
I quoted verbatim and fully. So, I can't provide any more info.

However, Trevor-Roper is very highly regarded for the thoroughness of
his research - almost as good as the Master himself (YOU) - so I have
no reason to doubt the statement.

I suppose that it's possible that Ribbentrop testified in German and
something may have got lost in translation.

So, let's rephrase the question ...

How many competing intelligence agencies can thx1138-ga find that were
providing foreign intelligence to the Germans?

Knowing thx1138-ga as I do, I am sure that he will now find MORE THAN
30.

Good Luck!

Bryan

---

Clarification of Question by probonopublico-ga on 24 Aug 2002 21:45 PDT

Hi, thx1138-ga

Had a look at Ribbentrop's testimony (thanks to your link). He did
testify in German and, on the 94th day, he said:

277
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that is true. We received numerous reports all
the time. Our intelligence service was such that we had a great many
channels doing intelligence work. All of these channels led to the
Fuehrer. The Foreign Office had relatively little intelligence
service, but relied rather an official diplomatic channels. But we too
received reports and news at that time which undoubtedly allowed
inferences to be drawn. We in the Foreign Office also received reports
implying that the Western Powers had the intention of advancing into
the Ruhr area at the first appropriate opportunity. The situation in
the West was such that the West Wall was a very strong military
barrier against France and this naturally gave rise to the idea that
such an attack might come through neutral territory, such as Belgium
and Holland.

Perhaps that was the reference?

Anyway, please post your answer to receive your usual high marks.

Many thanks!

Hi probonopublico,

Thank you for your comments!

During my research I had read some reviews of H Trevor-Roper's work,
and they all spoke very highly of his research, and so I find it
strange that the quote you refered to wasn't in Ribbentrops testimony
'word for word' I suppose it's possible that he gave testimony on
another date, if for example he was recalled to give statements? but
this would seem unlikely as there is a method for researching specific
websites for key words without having to wade through all the pages
individually (in other words I searched all the Nuremberg transcripts
for the phrase 'thirty competing agencies'and came up with nothing!)

Anyway, another document that you might find interesting on your next
trip to the PRO is KV 2/853 This file contains handwritten charts of
the Abwehr structure drawn by agent Tricycle it is in French but it
says 'charts' so it should be fairly self explanatory.
http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/may2002-mi5/list.htm

Good luck with you research!

All the best.

THX1138

Hi, thx1138-ga

You are a gem!

I'll certainly check out the Tricycle stuff on my next trip to the PRO.

Thanks again.

Bryan

Hi probonopublico,
I have spent too long on this! and must let it go:)  There were ALOT
of German intelligence agencies and I have listed some of them below. 
In order to give you a 'proper' answer it would require alot more
research including some translation.
Thank you for the rephrasing of the question, however this doesn´t let
us off the hook entirely!  Because of changes in organizational
structures between 1933-1945 various "agencies" were merged, dibanded,
created etc....However here are some organizations which you should
find of interest.


1. der Abwehr
2. der Abteilung "Fremde Heere" (West und Ost) im OKH
3. der Abteilung "Fremde Luftwaffe" im OKL
4. der Abteilung "Fremde Kriegsmarine" im OKM (3.Abt. Seekriegsleitung
"Naval   Warfare")
5. der Funkaufklärung
6. der Luftaufklärung
7. dem Ic-Dienst der drei Teilstreitkräfte
8. der Funkabwehr
9. der Abteilung Chiffrierwesen der Amtsgruppe
Wehrmachtsnachrichtenverbindungen im OKW.
10. dem Amt VI des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes
(SD-Auslandsnachrichtendienst)
11. dem Forschungsamt Hermann Görings
12. Teilen der Informationsabteilung des Auswärtigen Amtes.
Organisation The "Abwehrstelle (AST) im Wehrkreis X, Hamburg" was one
of the largest departments. It had 3 groups:
13 - "Geheimer Meldedienst"
14 - "Sabotage und Zersetzung" (dissolved May 1941)
15 - "Spionageabwehr"
SD foreign affairs under Walter Schellenberg
Following were part of AMT VI Auslandsnachrichtendienst
 http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/ss-rsha.htm 
"Amt VI, officially under Heinz Jost and later under Walter
Schellenberg, was called SD-Foreign, and was the foreign intelligence
of the SS. Its six divisions dealt with German spheres of interest in
the West."
http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:UrUMxPdVDOIC:motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x27/xr2789.html+Abwehr+sd+amt&hl=pt&ie=UTF-8
16. VI B Deutsch-italienisches Einflußgebiet in Europa, Afrika und dem
Nahen Osten
17. VI C Osten, Russisch-japanisches Einflußgebiet 
18. VI D Westen, Englisch-amerikanisches Einflußgebiet 
19. VI D 1 (America) 
20. VI D 2 (United Kingdom) 
21. VI D 3 (Scandinavia) 
22. VI D 4 (South America) 



“The SD was the intelligence service of the Nazi Party and it was
divided into two main sections: foreign affairs under Walter
Schellenberg, and internal affairs under Otto Ohlendorf. “

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:BF2ILBRdwN8C:motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x01/xr0108.html+%22the+Abwehr+was%22&hl=pt&ie=UTF-8


“1. der Abwehr
2. der Abteilung "Fremde Heere" (West und Ost) im OKH
3. der Abteilung "Fremde Luftwaffe" im OKL
4. der Abteilung "Fremde Kriegsmarine" im OKM (3.Abt. Seekriegsleitung
"Naval Warfare")
5. der Funkaufklärung
6. der Luftaufklärung
7. dem Ic-Dienst der drei Teilstreitkräfte
8. der Funkabwehr
9. der Abteilung Chiffrierwesen der Amtsgruppe
Wehrmachtsnachrichtenverbindungen im OKW.
10. dem Amt VI des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes
(SD-Auslandsnachrichtendienst)
11. dem Forschungsamt Hermann Görings
12. Teilen der Informationsabteilung des Auswärtigen Amtes.
Organisation The "Abwehrstelle (AST) im Wehrkreis X, Hamburg" was one
of the largest departments. It had 3 groups:
I - "Geheimer Meldedienst"
II - "Sabotage und Zersetzung" (dissolved May 1941)
III - "Spionageabwehr"
http://www.stahlbrandt.com/html/history/german_intelligence.html

If you would like to see Joachim von Ribbentrop´s testimony (and all
the others) at the Nuremburg trials you can read it here:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/v10menu.htm

Search terms.
sd amt Abwehr
://www.google.com/search?hl=pt&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_qdr=all&q=sd+amt+Abwehr&btnG=Pesquisa+Google&lr=lang_en

Hi, thx1138-ga

You've done well!

Please post a suitable answer.

Thanks & regards

Bryan

Hi probonopublico, 
 
You might also find this website interesting:

"Miscellaneous German Police Records, 1934-1943"
"This series contains approximately 9,100 pages or items."
"it contains German intelligence and especially counterintelligence
materials from a variety of police and military offices, especially
the Gestapo and the Abwehr"
http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified_records/record_group_242.html

Unfortunately the documents are all in the USA! 

Contact: http://www.archives.gov/global_pages/contact_us.html


Best regards

THX1138

Hi, thx1138-ga

Many thanks for your further info.

I don't suppose you could pop along to the USA for me?

Ah well, nobody's perfect.

Kindest regards

Bryan