Hoping this is a totally easy one -- assuming we have a totally fluent
Arabic/English speaking reseracher here.  What's the spelling in
English of the Arabic word for "Judgment Day."   This is for a
documentary.  It's going to be typed on the screen, so I'm hoping to
find the best spelling that will be the least objectionable to Arabic
speaking people.

I do realize that there is no standard way to spell Arabic.  The most
frequent suggestion (well, by 2 people) has been "Youm el Deen."  But
it's barely showing up online.  I also see "Youmadin."  "Yawm el
Deen."  etc.  On GA, "Yawm el Deen" has the most hits:  27.  But
that's so few, I don't know which way to go.
Is "Youm el Deen" preferable?  Thanks.

---

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 31 Oct 2005 14:31 PST

The key problem here seems to be the rendering of the middle syllable,
which can take a wide variety of spellings, and still have a similar
pronunciation.

A search using the Google wildcard feature on [ "yawm * deen" ] turns
up over 1,000 results:


://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-04%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=%22yawm+*+deen%22&btnG=Search


with many variations on a theme:

Yawm Ad Deen

Yawm-ad-Deen 

Yawm-ud-Deen

yawm-midh deen

yawm-id-Deen

Yawm-mid-Deen

yawm il-deen

Yawm Al-Deen 

Yawm-ed Deen


and so on.


Other forms also use Din, although this is not quite as common.


Still, you may want to consider using the online dictionary entry given here:


http://www.answers.com/topic/yawm-al-din


with the spelling Yawm al din.


I don't think anyone can really fault you for an 'inappropriate' spelling.


Let us know what you think.


pafalafa-ga

---

Clarification of Question by cryptica-ga on 31 Oct 2005 17:05 PST

Thanks, Palafala -- for the latest input.  
  You've found a lot of the same ones that we all did and as you can
see from all the comments below, there's no real consensus.  So --
because I'm on a deadline and it must be set by tomorrow morning --
I've decided to go with what a Jordanian, an Egyptian and here on GA,
computer_girl, have leaned toward:   YOUM EL DEEN.   Spelling it
"Yawm" looks too phonetic and distracting.

And, because everyone here and the Jordanian and Egyptian as well--
has also said more Muslims use "YOUM EL QIYAMAH" than the most
"classic" Youm El Deen, I'm going to have the narrator quickly mention
Qiyamah, too.  That way -- everybody should be happy -- regardless of
the spelling.  (At least I hope so!)

---

Clarification of Question by cryptica-ga on 31 Oct 2005 17:14 PST

P.S.  Let's see if there are any final comments by tomorrow -- and
then I guess the winning answer ought to go to DENCO-GA, for getting
the Qiyamah part right and making a noble effort for the Youm El Deen.

Thanks much for accepting this as the answer, cryptica-ga.

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that there does not appear
to be any easy way to anglicize Arabic.

As it has been shown, it appears that "Youm el-Deen" is a regional form
of the more general "Youm el-Qiyamah" term for "Judgment Day."

I agree with what has been expressed by others on that I don't think
that very many will fault you with using "Youm" instead of "Yawm," etc.

If they do, just refer them to here, where they can see the excellent
work that several have placed into this question.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

We may never get a consenus on the "true" answer, but Denco has come
thru with the best we can agree on for now.  Today is Google "judgment
day" -- so I'll give 5 stars.

Howdy cryptica-ga,

I would suggest "Qiyamah" instead.
http://www.answers.com/Qiyamah

"Yaum Al-Qiyâmah ??? ??????? (literally, 'Day of the Resurrection') is the
Arabic name for Judgement Day."

Also: http://www.al-qiyamah.org/

"Except for the theme of monotheism, the Qur'an speaks more of the coming
Qiyamah - also known as the Resurrection, the Day of Judgment, Day of
Gathering, and the Great Announcement - than of any other topic."

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

Denco --
Thank you for your suggestion.  It won't work, though, because in this
documentary there are several people being interviewed and each one
speaks about "Youm el deen" (or however it's spelled) and they
pronounce it that way and they call it "Judgment Day."  So to put the
word "Quiyamah" up on the screen would clash, even if it's correct.

There must be more than one way to say Judgment Day, I guess.  In this
case they are talking about it in reference to (as one describes it),
"being a day common in Christianity, Judaism and Islam.  A day of
judgment, when God judges you based upon what you've done in your life
up to that point.  It's like a bunch of debits and credits that you
have."

I'd say writing the word in the Arabic script would be least
objectionable to Arabic speakers.

secret901-ga

Howdy cryptica-ga,

I see.  How about "yawm il-deen" instead?  118 hits on Google.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

Secret901 -- Thank you --indeed we do intend to put the word on the
screen in Arabic script as well as English.

Denco -- "Yawm il-deen."   118 hits?  Well, we're movin' up a little. 
But it still is such a low figure -- especially when you see MILLIONS
of hits for the different spellings "Koran," "Qur'an" and "Quran."
I keep thinking there's got to be a mother load hit for "Judgment Day."

Howdy cryptica-ga,

There is: "yawm id-deen" with 212 hits on Google.

Also: "yawm ad-deen" with 317 hits on Google.

I think the main problem is there are several ways to spell the Arabic word
for "day" (yaum, yawm, youm, etc.) and several ways to express "of" (el, il,
ad, id, etc.) as well.

If the people you interviewed are using "el"/"il" for the word "of" then I
would lean to "Yawm il-Deen" for the caption.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

Hi cryptica,

Being a fluent Arabic speaker, the correct translation for "Judgement
Day" is "Yawm Al Qiyamah".

I hope that helps.

Best regards,
Rainbow

being an egyptian speaking arabic since i was born !!
if you want to say it "Youm El deen" thats the way to be pronounced in
arabic right & perfect
but in language there is nothing called "youm el deen" its called
"Youm el Qiamah" <it is just to know>
another thing you can call it "Youm El Hasab" it is right to be "Judgment Day"

Thank you, Rainbow, denco and computer_girl for the latest messages. 
Sounds like from what everybody's saying there isn't going to be "one"
spelling.
I was told today that "Youm el Deen" is a Pakistani way of saying
"Youm El Qiyamah" which is (as all of you have pointed out), a more
proper word.

But I just don't see how I can put the "Qiuyamah" on the screen while
someone is speaking out loud "Youm el Deen."  It would be so
distracting the point of the interview bite would be lost.  It would
look like a mistake, even if it isn't one.  I have to mull this over.
Perhaps it would be possible to write copy for the narrator to explain
the discrepancy, but I doubt we can work that in due to time
restrictions.  And I'm also concerned that it would imply that the
peoople being interviewed are using the wrong word.  Know what I mean?

Cryptica,
Since your speakers seem to be Pakistanis, perhaps the expression is
Urdu, or an Urdu pronunciation of the Arabic.  (Christians take lots
of liberties with the pronunciation of Biblical names, reflected in
spelling in different languages:  e.g.:  Job, in German: Hiob.)

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/urdu.htm

Perhaps someone can confirm this and suggest the best transliteration.

Myoarin -- and everyone else who has jumped in to to help...

Urdu is a new twist -- but -- Well, no, the speakers aren't Pakistani.
  Let me see if I can unravel this. I thought I'd asked a simple
question, but i see that it's not.  OK.  what we have a a scene from
an upcoming TV series about a terrorist cell in Los Angeles.   The
actors speak dialogue that refers to preparing for "Judgment Day" and
in the dialogue (which has been shot and cannot be changed), they call
Judgement Day "Youmadin."

Then the real life actors are interviewed about this scene and explain
the meaning of the word.  And in the course of their interviews (which
have been shot, so no ability to get them to rephrase), they discuss
"Youmadin."  ,

As they define words in the script, I want to put the word up on the
screen in both Arabic and English.
I COULD put "Youmadin" up there -- because that's how it is typed in
the scripts, but from my research, I can't find ANY example of it
being spelled that way.

I had spoken to a Saudi and someone from Jordan before I posted the
question here -- and they had said, use "Youm el Deen."  Then I saw
how our Google gang had different thoughts and went back to them and
asked why it wasn't "Qiyamah" and they said well, probably becaause
the screenwriter of that particular episode is Pakistani and that's
probably how he chose to say "Judgment Day."

So ...there you have it.  If possible, i could have the narrator say
something like, "While here the characters refer to "Youmadin," the
more correct word would be "Qiyamah."  But then, that would be
questioning the series, the actors and confusing the audience.   Can't
do it.

So -- it's back to the basic question.   How to put the word
"Youmadin" on the screen spelled in English in a way that would be
most reasonable.

Denco's "Yawm ad deen" has the most hits, but . . .    "Yawm" looks so
phonetic.   At least "Youm el Deen" looks a bit almost real?     
Shall we take a vote?      Since Arabic is supposed to have only 3
vowels that are common in English and lots of consonants that we
aren't familiar with and no standardized way of spelling anything, I
know it's going to be tough to settle on something.
I tried seeing if I could find it in the NY Times archives or AP
articles -- but you have to know how to spell it first!

Isn't show biz fun?

What a problem!  These days, I thought it would be possible to dub in
another word on the sound track, having the actors speak them and with
only the M as a visible labial in both expressions.
If that isn't possible, the narrator could explain that it is a
dialect pronunciation/alternative for Qiyamah - better in my opinion
than suggesting that one is wrong and the other correct (although it
might appeal to some to have the people in a terrorist cell speak
improper Arabic).
But I expect that you still need confirmation that this is true.
I agree with you on the spelling.  Denco's "yawm ..." may be the more
usefully accurate transliteration, but it distracts, I feel, my eyes
wanting to read "yawn" and seeing the English word.  "Yaum" or "Youm"
seem better.

Good luck, Myoarin

Myorain- Yes, you could dub in another word- - in theory. But not in
reality.  The  creative team of the series chose "Youmadin" and it's
not my place -- nor do I have permission -- to tamper with it. Plus, I
gather it's not incorrect.  It's just not as common.  Maybe we should
write a new song, "You say Youmadin and I say Qiyamah--Let's call the
whole thing off...."

But seriously, I think you just might have something there with your
idea of  having the narrator mention the "alternative" word.  That's a
diplomatic way to put it, good idea.  But am I opening a new can of
worms?  Then we have to deal with all the spellings of "Qiyamah!"

I wouldn't worry too much about the spelling(s).  First:  how many are
going to care; second:  even if the chosen spelling is 80% approved,
someone will think it is wrong, but if so, will probably be well
enough acquainted with the problems of transliteration to accept it
without complaining as long as the Arabic is correct.
Good luck, Myoarin

dear  cryptica-ga
there is something the narrator should know when saying "Youm el Deen
"its 2 sepeart words that there is a small pause between them and you
can't cancel it because if you did so it will not sound right and no
one will get it easily but "Youm El Deen" with making the spaces as
pauses is the right way to spell it .
and there is something else "Yawm ad deen" sounds wrong in something
which is "ad" that is wrong as a matter of fact because "EL" in arabic
is like "the" in english so you can't pronounce it combined in the
second word with making the last letter as the  letter in next word !!
thats a wrong pronouncation .
i hope that you get what i say ,and good luck

Computer_girl --  Thank you for the explanation and yes, I will be
careful about the pronunciation.  There will be someone at the
recording session who speaks Arabic, and he will be an advisor -- he
will make sure that our narrator pronounces everything as accurately
as possible.

I have a question for you.   Do you approve of English-speakers saying
 "Shiites" as the plural of "Shia?"  I was told that "Shiite" or
"Shiites" is incorrect and that it should be "Shia" for singular and
plural.  What is your opinion?

i was wondering what is "shiittes" , "shiitte" or "shia"
do you mean by "shia" in english "something / anything" 
if it means "something" then both "shiitees and shiitte" are worng
cause it has no plural and its singluar is same as plural <works on
both>

look , you better give me the word in english and i tell you what is
it !! it sounds easier as i can't figure out what exaclty you mean by
it ??
i 'll be waiting for it & ia m at your service any time you want 

by the way "youm el deen " is right in language as i found it today in
the Holy Qur'an so i thought its better to tell you that it is same as
"youm el Qyamah"

c u l8r

Computer_girl --
OK, we're going with  "YOUM EL DEEN" and also "YOUM EL QIYAMAH."  

The actors say "YOUM EL DEEN" in their dialogue and also in their
interviews, but I will have the narrator say that many Muslims PREFER
"YOUM EL QIYAMAH."

Shiite. . . in English, many people seem to use the word "Shiite" when
they mean Shia Muslim.    Until I began to work on this project, I
didn't know that Shiite was a Western invented word.   People also
think it is the plural of Shia.
Or Shi'a.  (you see it spelled both ways).

You have one Shia or many Shia.   (that's the correct way, yes?)
You do NOT have one Shiite or many Shiites.  

So much to learn -- so little time!

ohh i got what you mean by "Shiite" <ohh there was big misunderstand
in the last comment about it  >
in arabic it is said for singular (man) "shia`ee"
and for plural (men)"shya'aa" 
but actually about english - speakers speaking about it i hardly hear
it , i just knew it through the dictionary that it means a certain
group ,
you know what its almost rare here in egypt using that term 
but look , by checking dictionary.com 
Shiite is for the man belonging to that group 
but Shiites is the group it self 
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Shiite
hope to help you , and anything you need from me just mail me @
emanelayyat@gmail.com!!

Much thanks for the comments, 5 star rating and generous tip, cryptica-ga.

As well, thanks for the judgement!

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher