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Subject:
Domestic staff positions
Category: Relationships and Society > Cultures Asked by: archae0pteryx-ga List Price: $16.00 |
Posted:
05 Dec 2005 11:15 PST
Expires: 04 Jan 2006 11:15 PST Question ID: 601749 |
Historically, what are the customary domestic staff positions in a well-to-do urban European household? I am looking for a maximum of about sixteen positions, but five or six might be enough. We are talking about a household with a level of affluence roughly equivalent to that of the Bellamys of "Upstairs, Downstairs," but in another time and place. I am interested in seeing the same list twice, in different arrangements: 1. By indispensability of function. By this I mean what are the most basic, "essential" positions (I use quotes because no one really *needs* servants) and then the added luxuries; so that I could go down the list to, say, number 4 and any household that had only four servants on staff would most likely have those four; and if they could have two more, then it would be the next two. For instance, I would guess that a cook would come high on the list, but a cook's assistant would come somewhere further down--that is, there are several other positions you would fill before you budgeted for a kitchen helper. If my assumption is wrong, please set me straight. 2. By internal domestic hierarchy. This means pecking order. Who's the overall top boss of the staff (after the lady of the house), and how do they rank, going down? Or who are equals? This question is not just about authority but about sociopolitical relationships among staffers: who has to be deferential to whom, who gives orders, who can speak to whom as a peer. In this second list, please also include a brief (one line will do) description of the person's area of responsibility. For example, what does the coachman do, and what does the footman do? Is a housemaid the same as a chambermaid? For bonus points, who would handle (or assist with) the business side of things if the lady of the house were a widow? My application is medieval northwestern France and the Lowlands, but I am going to make the assumption that the basic roles and functions haven't changed a lot in a few centuries. Again, if you think I am wildly wrong, please set me straight. Thank you, Archae0pteryx |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: geof-ga on 06 Dec 2005 02:03 PST |
I think you're making the mistake of thinking that all these functions were rigid and mutually exclusive. Yes, at the top of the tree, in say a large country house owned by a wealthy aristocrat, there would have been the full range of servants from butler (male) and housekeeper (female) down to pantry boys and undermaids etc. But surely in more modest households where the budget was limited, the starting point would have been to work out how many servants could be afforded, and then try to get "utility" people who could cover as wide a range of functions as necessary. |
Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: myoarin-ga on 06 Dec 2005 03:16 PST |
Hi Tryx, What a delightful question! I have found some sites about Victorian England on the subject that seem to address your questions. I also agree with your notion that the situation earlier was probably quite similar; the same functions were needed, and the tradition of servants was passed down in Great Houses that existed much earlier. (I deleted a site with a photo of a Blenheim Palace footman in livery that had remained unchanged since the palace was built.) I would argue with your apologetic ?no one really needs servants?. Today, we still have lots of ?servants?: our household cleaning appliances, central heating, gas, electricity and water (both in and out), dry cleaners, auto mechanics, stores that provide ready-made clothes and much else, kindergartens, etc., etc. We just pay for them differently - and don?t call them servants. Earlier, to maintain a better establishment, one needed staff to take care of all this. And the lady of the house had to know herself how to do much of what her staff did so that she knew what standard she could demand, be it cooking or cleaning or needlework - and also learn how to manage of servants and a household. (I would love to go on about that with a couple of anecdotes, but 19th and 20th century don?t apply to your period.) http://www.victorianweb.org/history/work/burnett5.html http://www.beaulieu.co.uk/beaulieupalace/victorianstaff.cfm http://www.mpmbooks.com/amelia/SERVANTS.HTM http://www.butlerschool.com/interesting_facts.htm http://www.likesbooks.com/servants.html I hope this helps. Geof's point is well taken, as you can learn from the first site; specialization increases as the household grows - and there is enough work of different types to be a full-time job for the function. Best regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: myoarin-ga on 06 Dec 2005 23:02 PST |
HI again Tryx, Check out ?staffing a great household? on this site for confirmation that a large 16th century staff was every bit as stratified as that 300 years later. http://renaissance.dm.net/compendium/30.html These sites seemed too interesting to let pass: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1577harrison-england.html http://historymedren.about.com/od/peopleplaces/ Take care, regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: myoarin-ga on 17 Dec 2005 14:34 PST |
Hi Tryx, after your "question" directed at me, I rather expected that you had been here and replied. No problem. Since it just happened to pop up in the meantime in a question about children's correspondence, this USA letter with a line about learning to deal with servants was in a link, just as an example that overseeing servants is something to be learned: "From a Young Lady to Her Mother, Absent from Home. TOLEDO, May 16, 1881. My Own Dear Mother:?We are looking forward most impatiently to your return. Home will be sweet home once more when we have you among us again, for we have all missed you sadly these long evenings. The little ones are wild with delight. Their heads are full of projects for little surprises to give dear mamma. The choicest flowers that each can claim as her own are watched with anxious care, and are destined to be sweet offerings of their love to you. I hope, dear mother, you will be pleased with my household management during your absence. Papa considers me quite clever, and a credit to your able teaching; still I know I am but a beginner, and each day I feel more and more the need of your teaching, particularly in directing the servants, whom I cannot praise too much for their attention and industry. Hoping that nothing will delay your long wished for return, with best love, in which all unite, Believe me, your own Fondly attached and loving child, JANE M. CLAY." Best regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 30 Dec 2005 20:39 PST |
Hi, all, Thanks for your many wonderful comments. I greatly appreciate your efforts and your good contributions of information. I have been back here again and again but haven't posted anything because everytime I look, I feel stymied all over again. Obviously I have failed once more to make clear what I want to know. I am not assuming rigidity of position, and I understand about specialization, but I am assuming some skills and preferences, such that, for instance, a cook might (if pressed) help with the children, but a nanny couldn't necessarily cook; and that if you could afford only, say, a staff of four, you would not hire just any four people but would look for certain abilities or the coverage of certain functions. And those were sort of what I was after here. I was also thinking that if a household had, for instance, an under house-parlormaid (thinking of Sarah), you would automatically know that it was affluent and had a large staff, because no such position would exist in a small household. And what I was really, really getting at was, if I want to depict a fairly well-to-do household in medieval times and represent its domestic staff and cast its characters, what positions would I need? I expect I'd need a cook and butler and valet and lady's maid and coachman and footman; but would the valet double as footman? Would the maid assist the cook? Who lords it over the others, and who cowers in submission? Who is most dispensable and least secure in his position? I am not going to dwell on it, fictionally, but I don't want supporting details to be wildly wrong. And I thought my question as worded would help me figure this out, and now I don't know how else to ask it. Archae0pteryx |
Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: myoarin-ga on 31 Dec 2005 06:00 PST |
Hi Tryx, I think you did state your question clearly, but for lack of feedback, I didn't want to preempt a Researcher more than I already had. I rather thought the first (?) link I posted suggested that you are right in your thoughts, as it describes the increasing number of staff in a household. Things couldn't have been much different in "your" period, just as they aren't today, though probably not live-in: first a cleaning woman/maid; then a cook; nanny if necessary (maybe even a nursing one); male servant for the heavy and dirty work, also stables and animals (poultry, rabbits, swine, goat for milk maybe); and as the household grows larger, he gets relegated more to outside when a butler comes on. The cook will be senior till then, being able to call on the assistance of the others (the man for firewood, the maid to clean vegetables - with the mistress's agreement); but the butler will think he runs the staff, but may have to earn the respect of the cook, who will still have a lot to say - since she is now more important - feeding everyone ("You don't fuss with the cook."). By now someone for washing and sewing is needed; and maybe an upstairs maid; coachman; valet (who, I agree, could double as footman), if the stable hand wasn't such a grobian that he couldn't observe the niceties or looked unattractive (pockmarked, maybe). A footman to help the coachman might be added, and might be the most dispensible person, at everyone's beck and call. But maybe the valet is in the weaker position, a matter of relative character. Aren't varlet and valet related? If one of them had his eyes on the upstairs maid ...? Wasn't unusual, if one can believe "My Secret Life" or Frank Harris's "My Life and Loves" from the 19th c. Okay, that is mostly my interpretation, so ignore or add your own. The daughter(s) of the family would have been helping in order to learn. Here is a German site that is interesting and among much else says that there is not much information about patrician household staff (so maybe no one will argue with you :), The lady of the house is in charge (remember: "Chatelaine") http://www.fres.ch/bd/content/geschichte/haushaltfamilieMA.html It comes from this site with very many links, some in English: http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/mittelalter/links/links24.htm If I can help with the German, let me know, but I hope it comes up on your screen with Google's offer to translate. And, of course, if you still have questions, I will be pleased to try to help further. Happy New Year and regards, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: myoarin-ga on 01 Jan 2006 05:17 PST |
Happy New Year again! SOmething is wrong with G-A, postings since 31. Dec. aren't showing up on the list nor moving questions back to the top. Re: translating. This is a comment to another question that may be of use: "If I'm not mistaken I think you have the option to translate pages if you have the Google Toolbar installed and the site's language differs from yours (maybe you had Google Toolbar installed once?): http://toolbar.google.com/ Otherwise you can paste the url to the page you want transleted into Google's language tool: ://www.google.com/language_tools " Cheers, Myoarin |
Subject:
Re: Domestic staff positions
From: archae0pteryx-ga on 01 Jan 2006 12:08 PST |
Hi, Myoarin, You have given me plenty to think about here. Thank you. I can work with this. Alles Gute im Neuen Jahr! Tryx |
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