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Subject:
Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: ryandpp-ga List Price: $20.00 |
Posted:
06 Dec 2005 16:34 PST
Expires: 05 Jan 2006 16:34 PST Question ID: 602357 |
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Subject:
Re: Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 28 Dec 2005 22:58 PST |
OK Ryan, sometimes the question gets answered in the comments, and then usually, researchers shrug their shoulders and let it be. You got lot of comments, and did not expire the question. Comments you got are a mix of opinions, some true, some silly, and so answer may be desirable. First of all, you should get a real EE to consult for you, hire one or get a volunteer by calling local chapter of IEEE. Else you are spreading more myth than you are busting. Response time: You can NOT show response using a voltmeter. It is too fast. ------------- " For example, at 6mA, UL943 requires the GFCI to interrupt within 5594msec (5.6 seconds), at 10mA it must interrupt within 2694msec (2.4 seconds), at 25mA it must interrupt at 726msec (0.73 seconds) and at 250mA is must interrupt at 25msec .." http://www.bender.org/RCMA473L6-33%20Datasheet.pdf An EE can show how to hook up a scope which can visualize fast processes. http://www.doctronics.co.uk/scope.htm Cheap effects or myth busting? ------------------------------ " [effects] would be desired (i.e. sparks, arcing on the surface etc.)" I see basic problem here, which may explain why popular science on TV is usually so bad: Either you want to show what actually happens, a demo, may the chips fall where they will, or you are making a magic show, an illusion. To make sparks is not hard - every science museum shop sells plasma globes, which use high voltage, high frequency, to make sparks which are not dangerous: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=plasma%20globe So, if you want to explain something, explain at least what the danger is: " in order to produce heart fibrillation, an electric power supply must produce a significant current in the heart muscle continuing for many milliseconds, and must deposit a total energy in the range of at least millijoules or higher. Alternatively, it must deliver enough energy to damage tissue through heating" http://www.answers.com/topic/voltage-sparks-and-danger Say a bit about the Ohm Law - it is not that hard to understand. http://www.sciencejoywagon.com/physicszone/lesson/otherpub/wfendt/ohmslaw.htm "Water and hair dryer" is a bit too simple - it is more a bogeyman than a real experiment. Electric shock is result of a current passing through a body. Amount of that current depends on the path (from the outlet to the ground) and on the voltage - as described by the Ohm;s law. If you get that across to the general public, then you accomplished something. 'Two contacts in water' are meaningless. You want to measure resistance of the path (from outlet to ground) and perhaps the current which would pass through the body (if body would be in that path) . You need visualisation of a response a scope, not a voltmeter to show it. http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/class/p71d13.html http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/science/Elec/basic5.html http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/3.html Hedgie |
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Subject:
Re: Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
From: angiem357-ga on 06 Dec 2005 17:10 PST |
If I remember correctly, the Mythbusters tested something similar to this. I can't remember exactly, but it was Episode 19, "Quicksand." I don't think there's any way to purchase a DVD of the show, but maybe you could keep an eye out for it. It might answer some of your questions and show you the results of their testing. |
Subject:
Re: Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
From: accojoe-ga on 06 Dec 2005 17:28 PST |
yes the mythbusters did do that. i think you have a good experment, but on problem current dosn't run through water, even tap, very well. you may want to run the experiment with tap water and then add some soap or a salt to make the current run better through it. |
Subject:
Re: Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
From: cynthia-ga on 06 Dec 2005 18:18 PST |
I saw that Mythbusters episode, and to the contrary, it was visually very entertaining! Check this out: Bathtub Electrocution: CONFIRMED - virtually everything they dropped in the tub registered as a fatal shock. http://www.tv.com/mythbusters/quicksand-bathtub-electrocution-mri-rays-and-tattoos/episode/368721/summary.html MYTHBUSTERS - OFFICIAL SITE Episode 19: Quicksand http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/episode/episode_06.html ..."Has Hollywood gotten it right all this time? Can you really murder someone by dropping an electrical appliance into a bathtub? In a truly electrifying experiment, the guys find out what actually happens when hair dryer and water collide. Then follow the MythBuilders as they pursue the case of the exploding tattoo in the MRI. How, if at all, will the traces of metal found in the ink of Scottie's tattoos react with the MRI's rays? And Tarzan used it successfully against his enemies, but will killer quicksand take down the MythBusters? premiere: Oct. 20, 2004 ..." From the Mythbusters Fan Club Site: http://www.mythbustersfanclub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Second_season;action=display;num=1098376015 ..."Hair Dryer/Bath Electrocution: Simply put, if someone's in the bathtub and an electrical appliance gets dumped in with them, the movies state that it would give enough of a jolt to their system to kill them. The guys did a good job of simulating the myth, and testing the current as each item (toaster, curling iron, hair dryer, and radio, among other things we didn't see) gets dumped into the test bathtub (using a ballistics gel dummy with metal panels inside to simulate the human heart). They ended up getting a few things wrong with the test (like overestimating the amount of ampage needed to kill someone and minor equipment goofs), but once those were solved, they were amazed at how well the experiment proved the myth. About the only object dumped that didn't give over the fatal amount of amps (which was around 6) was the curling iron, and that still pumped out enough amps to at least leave you paralyzed long enough to eventually submerge into the water and drown, or bake to death from the current...." I don't know the answers to your questions, but thought I'd pass this along. |
Subject:
Re: Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
From: patdh-ga on 08 Dec 2005 21:59 PST |
I think you should stay away from the microwave. (Someone please set me straight if I'm completely wrong, but give a source so I can learn) The amount of nonionizing radiation generated by the microwave is dangerous when not properly shielded by the door or metal case. I'm not quite sure what effect the submersion into water would do, but I wouldn't want to have a surprise. |
Subject:
Re: Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
From: quantummechanique-ga on 12 Dec 2005 03:51 PST |
I did happen to see part of an episode of SCI where they tested an electrocution with a doll made of a gel that had the same electrical conductivity than a human body. Having a similar body doll in the bath could give better visualization for the test. Of course you would have to make sure that the gel used in that kind of tests is not water dissolving. |
Subject:
Re: Droping a hairdryer in a bathtub in the name of good television.
From: fubini-ga on 12 Dec 2005 21:03 PST |
From what I know of high-energy physics you aren't going to get an electrical light show from dropping anything into a bath tub. The reason is twofold: water can "hold" an enormous amount of electricity, so it'll take a lot (probably more than you could provide, if you're using a full tub of water) to raise the potential of the water to the point where you could anything flashy to happen. Second, for flashy stuff to happen you would need to have the electricity to arc from one place to another place. Given electricity's affinity for water, you'll have a hard time doing this to any great degree. I was thinking if you want a visual representation of what's happening to the energy supply you could wire up a fake vanity with lights around the mirror. Have it in the shot as you drop your toaster or whatever into the bathtub, and have the lights on the same circut as the toaster. I don't know if you'll get that flickering effect that you see in movies or if it would just go out. I think even that your GCFI would kick on before the breaker tripped, so the power supply with the lights would dim for a split second before going up to full power again. On the other hand, if you're recording at 30 or so FPS you'd have to get lucky to capture more than a couple of frames with the effect. |
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