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Subject:
Melting Thought Ice
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: gocatgo-ga List Price: $50.00 |
Posted:
09 Dec 2005 05:33 PST
Expires: 11 Dec 2005 14:11 PST Question ID: 603595 |
I want to know in the form of watts. I think time and power are direcly dependant on each other. I need to melt a 8" hole in the ice. where: lake in MN, when: middle of winter. Ice thickness 15" I don't know the ice temp it must change as you go through the ice. Outside temp 5 Degrees F. It can have a core to reduce energy needed. Purpose to find out if I can melt holes in the ice with useing a large lead acid battery 12 volts. Please keep in mind the water will be preasent which will conduct alot of the heat. I have melted some holes in ice in a 5 gallon bucket with a 500watt heat and a 8" alum tube walls 1/16"thick but seems to take alot of energy. If someone can help with a real world envirment. |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: bozo99-ga on 09 Dec 2005 10:29 PST |
Would a chainsaw do better - if a rectangular hole is ok ? The required energy depends on how much ice you melt. If you are melting a follow cylinder instead of a solid one you get by with less energy - hard to say how much exactly. It could pay to make your cutter insulated everywhere except the cutting edge. I suppose someone lazy would put a removable (polystrene, cork ?) buoy in the lake before it froze. |
Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: markvmd-ga on 09 Dec 2005 21:31 PST |
Bozo99, if you insulate the heated cutter so only the tip (or, say, the first inch) is hot, you'd get refreeze after a few inches and the whole thing gets locked in the ice. Gocat, you're heating a hollow cylinder at least 15 inches long by 8 inches across. That's two surfaces that are 15x25 (let's call it two surfaces of 400 square inches each) to a temperature of, say, 120 degrees F. That alone is a lot of power. But when you have to overcome the energy of the state change from ice to water... well, that's where the real power is needed. I'm not gonna do the math-- I'll leave that to Google Researcher-- but one car battery isn't gonna do it. Cool experiment: put a block of ice as a bridge between two sawhorses. Suspend a moderate weight (one or two pounds is okay) on a string looped over the ice. Sprinkle a couple of pinches of salt on the length of the string on the ice. Wait. In a few hours the string and weight will have cut through the ice block and fallen to the ground... but the block will be whole. It refroze behind the string! |
Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: kottekoe-ga on 09 Dec 2005 23:59 PST |
Let's suppose you wish to melt a cylinder of ice that is 8" in diameter, 15" thick, and 1" wide. That is pi*8"*15"*1" = 377 in^3 or 6178 cm^3. The heat of fusion of water is 335 kilojoules per kilogram. Ignoring the heat required to raise the temperature of the ice to melting temperature and heat lost through conduction or radiation, the total heat required is: (335 kJ/kg)*(6.2 kg) = about 2 megajoules at 500 Watts (Joules/sec), it would take 4000 seconds or about one hour to melt this cylinder. It is more work to estimate how much heat would be conducted away, but this will increase the time required. A typical car battery holds about 100 amp-hours at 12 volts or 1200 Watt-hours, about the right amount of power to melt your hole. |
Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: kottekoe-ga on 10 Dec 2005 00:01 PST |
Oops! I meant to say that a car battery holds about the right amount of ENERGY (not power) to melt your hole. |
Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: myoarin-ga on 10 Dec 2005 05:42 PST |
Yeah, but you can't forget the heat needed to raise the temperature of the ice to 32°F. Gocatgo is assuming the outside temperature is 5°F. At that temperature, I don't think that salt is going to have much effect. I expect that if this could be done, someone would be marketing it, but it seems that power augers are what is available: http://www.strikemaster.com/power.html |
Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: kottekoe-ga on 10 Dec 2005 08:44 PST |
OK, we can add the heat required to raise the temperature. I didn't include it because this whole calculation is just a rough estimate and it is small compared to the heat of fusion: 4200 J/kg/K * 6.2 kg * (32 - 5)F * 5/9 K/F = 0.39 MJ Add that to the approximately 2 MJ and you have 2.4 MJ. A bigger effect that I don't intend to calculate is the loss of heat due to conduction, radiation, and convection. Let's assume that you melt the ice instantaneously, so this contribution can be ignored. The conclusion is still that a 100 Amp-Hour battery is big enough, but just barely. |
Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: gocatgo-ga on 11 Dec 2005 09:11 PST |
I thought it was a stupid idea had to try I did insulate the cutting edge there was so much heat conduction still the water would never freeze but was still a very slow process bought parts from mcmaster. I was worth a try. |
Subject:
Re: Melting Thought Ice
From: gocatgo-ga on 11 Dec 2005 09:17 PST |
What about ultrasonic |
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