I am looking for an US registered agent/agency to help filling a
provisional patent application for a "business method".
The only limitation is that the fees should be in the low range (say
500 USD), everything included.
Is that possible?

If you pay 500 bucks for that you are wasting your money, most
attorneys will do it for a lot less. A provisional application is
ussually a single page document describing the idea and naming the
parties involved, there is absolutely nothing to it. It lasts for one
year, you will have to file a 'real' application within that time
frame.

Dear Tateti

Elids-ga comments are SO very wrong it should be criminal
(figuratively speaking) to make them.  An US provisional patent
application must give full support (enablement, written description)
of the invention or it is useless.  The length of the application can
be variable, but it is not a "single page document describing the idea
and naming the parties involved".  A patent agent/attorney will FILE a
provisional for about $500 or less, but they will not WRITE and FILE a
provisional application for that amount.  Remember, you get what you
pay for.  Find a reputable patent agent/attorney in your local area,
and ask for their fee structure.

Good Luck

"Elids-ga comments are SO very wrong it should be criminal
(figuratively speaking) to make them. "


I will keep to myself comments as to what may be the motivation of the
prior poster with regards to my post, and provide 'just the facts' by
quoting from the well known book "Patent it Yourself" by Nolo
www.nolo.com on the introduction to this particular type of 'patent',
from the 3rd chapter, WHEN IN ALL CAPS THE ENPHASIS IS MINE

--------------------- 

Documentation- the DDP, and the PPA 
	section I 'The Provisional Patent Application- A sunbstitute for
Building and Testing, With Some Disadvantages.


1. What a Provisional Patent Application (PPA) Is

	A PPA is a short version of a regular patent application. It is used
to establish an early filing date for a later-filed regular Patent
Application (RPA). A PPA must contain:
	a. a detailed description of the invention telling how to make and use it. 
	b. drawing(s), if necessary to understand how to make and use the invention, 
	c. a cover sheet, and 
	d. a fee (small entity (SE) or large entity-see Appendix 4, Fee Schedule).
	(The PTO no longer requires a Small-Entity Declaration.)
	In actuality the term "PPA" is a misnomer, since IT IS A SIMPLE
DOCUMENT DEPOSTI, NOT AN APPLICATION (a request for something). I like
to call a PPA a DPED (Domestic Priority Establishing Document) to
avoid confusion. Some inventors and publications have improperly
referred to it as a "PROVISIONAL PATENT." SINCE THE PPA IS NOT EVEN AN
APPLICATION, IT IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE CALLED A PATENT.

2. What a PPA is Not

A PPA is not a regular patent application (RPA) and there-fore cannot
by iteself result in a patent. For those readers already familiar
qieht the regular patent application process described in Chapter 8,
the PPA, unlike an RPA, does not require
	* a Patent Application Declaration (PAD)
	* an Information Disclosure Statement (IDS)
	* patente claims
	* an abstract and summary
	* a description of the invention's background, or
	* a statement of the invention's objects and advantages. 
	If you don't file an RPA within  a year or your PPA's filing date,
your PPA will go abandoned and will be forever useless. Also, your PPA
cannot provide a filing date for a subject matter that is not
disclosed in it.


----------

It goes on to 3. where it states what the PPA Accomplishes and
eventually how to do it yourself if you so wish, you don't even need a
lawyer, IT IS THAT SIMPLE!

on a side bar it compares the PPA with the Disclosure Document Program
which I will reproduce for your benefit;

"In a way the PPA program is analogous to the Disclosure Document
Program (DDP-Section H above). The DDP provides a record of conception
for those who dont' have any witnesses, while the PPA provides the
equivalent of an RTP (Reduction to Practice) for any inventors who
can't get witnesses to their building and testing, or who aren't abel
to build and test. In both cases the filed documents only establish
priority over other inventions or prior-art references, and don't
themselves lead to a patent of affect it's term-for that, a regular
patent application is required."



You really should learn about the process a little bit, it is very,
very simple. It will require some work for filing the patent
application not so much in the application in of itself, but in the
research that goes on before you can create and file the application.
If you are willing to do the research the legaleze is pretty standard.


Thank you for your comments Tateti, looking forwards to what you may have to say.

Elí

One more thing, in this case because it would be a business method
there would be no need for drawings, and I am fairly certain that the
concept could be written in less than one page. The cover sheet is
pretty standard so that would require simply adding the name of the
applicant.

" An US provisional patent
application must give full support (enablement, written description)
of the invention or it is useless."  

-It is not an application for a patent a PPA is simply saying hey want
to let you know I had this idea before anybody else.

" The length of the application can
be variable, but it is not a "single page document describing the idea
and naming the parties involved"."
-In this case the application couldn't possibly be any smaller; A concept.

"A patent agent/attorney will FILE a
provisional for about $500 or less, but they will not WRITE and FILE a
provisional application for that amount. "

-The actual process of filing it is simply going up to a window and
handing it to a teller, $ 500.00 for that is pretty steep.



:-)   Ok got it out of my system lol  you comment just kinda got to me...

Ha! this is funny.... from the ads on this thread... notice the dollar
amount on that first one...


Sponsored Links:
Provisional Patent - $199
Provisional patent application
filing service. Neustel Law Offices
www.neustel.com/fileprovisional.asp
	
Free Patent Information
Request a Free info package on how
we can help you with your patent
www.inventionhome.com
	
Calling All Inventors
Don't let this Opportunity pass by!
Visit now for a Free Inventors Kit
www.InventorsHelpline.Info
	
$2100 Patent Application
Patent Attorney
$250 Provisional Application
www.patent-application.us

Dear Elis-ga:
Many, MANY thanks!!! Amazing!! This info is really useful. And look at
the ads you found!!! I'll have a look. Once again, thank you!!!

Dear socal-ga: also many thanks to you for your comment.

My best wishes to you, guys, who are very kind posting comments!!!

Take care,
tateti-ga

Elids-ga:
I forgot to thank you for the citation from the book "Patent it
yourself" by Nolo, which really makes a point.
I knew the book, but I have an old edition. I'll have a look to a
newer edition. Thanks again!!
tateti

Hi

The reason I said Elids-ga?s answer was SO wrong is simple, it was
wrong.  It is more dangerous to give an incorrect answer than to not
answer at all.  As they say, ?a little knowledge is dangerous?. 
However, I am not critizing Elids personally.  Everybody is wrong
sometime, and many people will be wrong in a very complex field like
Patent Law.  The Nolo book is OK for a beginner but the reader must
understand what it means.

It is important to keep in mind ?why? a person files a provisional
application.  The purpose is to get a ?filing date? for the the
information disclosed in the application to prevent the citation of
prior art.  If the inventor does not disclose the full invention in
the provisional, then he has not received a filing date for the
?missing? information.

The critical issues are stated in the Patent Law -- 35 U.S.C. 112
?The specification shall contain a written description of the
invention, and of the manner and process of making and using it, in
such full, clear, concise, and exact terms as to enable any person
skilled in the art to which it pertains, or with which it is most
nearly connected, to make and use the same, and shall set forth the
best mode contemplated by the inventor of carrying out his invention.?

If the disclosure in the provisional [or non-provisional] does not
meet the standard of ?112?, then you do not have an enabling
disclosure and it is useless for establising a filing date for the
disclosure.

Finally, the cost of having a knowledgeable person file the
application may appear high but it is actually cheap when compared to
losing your patent rights.  However, the patent office will assist the
small inventor in filing an application.

Dear Socal-ga
Thanks a lot for your comment, and for making clear why a person files
a provisional application. I think that this is a strong point.
I understand that a not-so-well prepared patent application can make
the issued patent weak for protecting the inventor's rights.
My kindest regards and thanks for your comments.
Tateti

It is you the one the is wrong Socal, 

"Everybody is wrong sometime,"
Nothing in what I said contradicts any of what you've stated. How then
can I be wrong? if any of what I said was/is wrong please point out
exactly what was that.

"It is important to keep in mind ?why? a person files a provisional
application.  The purpose is to get a ?filing date? for the the
information disclosed in the application to prevent the citation of
prior art.  If the inventor does not disclose the full invention in
the provisional, then he has not received a filing date for the
?missing? information."

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I never said
otherwise and it comes without saying if you are going to say "hey I
had this idea first" then of course you must explain the idea to the
standards set forth by the governing body. The same applies to the
next two chapters, you can quote the law all day long, so long as I
said nothing that contradicts it my statement stands, furthermore you
have not even hinted at what is 'So Wrong' with anything I said. It is
imperative that you keep in mind the words 'I said'.

"Finally, the cost of having a knowledgeable person file the
application may appear high but it is actually cheap when compared to
losing your patent rights.  However, the patent office will assist the
small inventor in filing an application."

Once again you were wrong, proven so and yet you insist. I stated "If
you pay 500 bucks for that you are wasting your money, most attorneys
will do it for a lot less" you said "A patent agent/attorney will FILE
a provisional for about $500 or less, but they will not WRITE and FILE
a provisional application for that amount." to which I provided an
advertisement for what should be a 'qualified person' an attorney that
would do as I had stated 'for a lot less' and I pointed to this ad;

"Sponsored Links:
Provisional Patent - $199
Provisional patent application
filing service. Neustel Law Offices
www.neustel.com/fileprovisional.asp"

You made an acusation borderline in an insult, you failed to
demonstrate and/or substantiate your position and now you are implying
that I suggested an uninformed person attempt to do the job. While it
is something a layperson can do like anything else if you are to
tackle legal matters it goes without saying that you must first get an
education. If that is not what you want to do, hiring an attorney that
will do the job for $199 (a lot less than the $ 500 suggested) would
be the way to go.

You were wrong, abusive and insulting. You are now being stubburn and
your comments are borderline slander due to the implication that I
suggested something I never said.


If any of what I have said here is incorrect please point it out, as I
have done with your posts. Don't imply I might've suggested something
the reader would infer.


Eli

Ok, ok Elids

I had hoped you would see the errors in your statement, however if you
want me to point them out, OK.  I decided to answer not so much to
correct you but to help people who are thinking of filing an US patent
application (either provisional or non-provisional).

Error 1.

Your statement -- ?A provisional application is usually a single page
document describing the idea and naming the parties involved, there is
absolutely nothing to it.?

Specifically ? ?a single page document?.  A US provisional application
(to have the proper support ? written description, enablement, best
mode..) can be of any length, but ?a single page document? is going to
be worthless.  Remember, the document should be 1.5 spaces with 1 inch
margins.  A very small application would be 10 pages, most are 40 to
80 pages with drawings.  It is also important to remember that a
person does not get a patent for an ?idea? but a ?solution? to an
idea.  It is the solution and all the details on how that solution is
different from all the other previous solutions (prior art) that
describes the invention.


Error 2

Tateti-ga asked ?The only limitation is that the fees should be in the
low range (say
500 USD), everything included. Is that possible??

and

You stated ?If you pay 500 bucks for that you are wasting your money,
most attorneys will do it for a lot less.?

The two important facts are ?500 USD? and ?everything included?.

You found this advertisement:
Provisional Patent - $199
Provisional patent application filing service. 

This shows that this person will FILE a provisional application for
$200.  However, this price does not include the WRITING of the
application.

If you thought ?everything included? only meant FILING.  Then you were
correct.  If you thought ?everything included? meant the WRITING and
FILING, as I did, then you were wrong.  Only you can know what was in
your mind, so it is up to you.

However, I did make it clear that you could get someone to file an
application for $500 or less, but not for writing and filing the
application.

Error 2 is not so bad as Error 1.  My biggest problem with your answer
was the ?single page document?.  As I said and continue to insist,
this answer is so wrong as to be criminal (figuratively).

Please do not have a thin skin.  We are all here trying to educate the
public.  Incorrect answers can do great harm, so they need to be
fixed.  As I said, everybody makes mistakes or has incorrect
information.  The goal is to learn so you do not make the same mistake
twice.

I will limit myself to pointing out the obvious;

>> I decided to answer not so much to
correct you but to help people who are thinking of filing an US patent
application (either provisional or non-provisional).

A PPA is not an application for anything. I?ll quote the 3rd post 
?In actuality the term "PPA" is a misnomer, since IT IS A SIMPLE
DOCUMENT DEPOSIT, NOT AN APPLICATION (a request for something).? all
it does is say ?I want to let you know I had this idea first?

>>?Error 1
Specifically ? ?a single page document?.  A US provisional application
(to have the proper support ? written description, enablement, best
mode..) can be of any length, but ?a single page document? is going to
be worthless.  Remember, the document should be 1.5 spaces with 1 inch
margins.  A very small application would be 10 pages, most are 40 to
80 pages with drawings.  It is also important to remember that a
person does not get a patent for an ?idea? but a ?solution? to an
idea.  It is the solution and all the details on how that solution is
different from all the other previous solutions (prior art) that
describes the invention.?

Ohh geez you don?t even know what you are talking about, I will put
little drawings so that you can see for yourself. Two concepts that
are easily available for you to research a PPA for beer pasteurization
that consists of ONE page and a car radio PPA that consists of ONE
page. Both of those comply with all the requirements of the PTO today
(with the exception of the spacing being one as supposed to 1.5).

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQCJAnUWREpTBja72HhILj*QUCWbwJaB6WDdqPyPy8XbciGvoX*tmve8TpQagWMO7vQe0ufQ*GleXTfeLx6FXKjdJV0!E3KhyPmwLv703vC8GIeiPGFiUA/PatenteBeer.GIF?dc=4675552179513978424

and 

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQAAAPwXv7xTBja72HhILs5HekljlL9380EJM8eI8Nn*qEwczn3sTHmEd6BBqOv4H15e923waWE9C4xgRWBt3!XkqRN77pbkvV0Z3!Vdo6RZWIBwhVaXAg/PatenteCarRadio.GIF?dc=4675552179516614262

The rest of the info needed and not included in that one page is
standard a 5th grader could do it, namely a cover sheet with personal
info for all inventors.

To see the actual patent for the radio apparatus go to 
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=01944139&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3Do179%2526s1%3D1,944,139.WKU.%2526OS%3DPN%2F1,944,139%2526RS%3DPN%2F1,944,139&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=194905EF8AAB

it is much much much longer and specific, it goes on to details and
makes lots of claims not made on the PPA. The same can be done today.
For more info on the subject go to
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/provapp.htm


They provide you with a kit (everything you need to get it done) and
do it, you should note that of that amount $ 115 goes to expenses and
they list them. So for $85 they provide you with all you need to DO IT
YOURSELF!  Made a quick call to a local attorney to verify how much he
would charge me to verify that the legal requirements have been met,
his fee to review my PPA $ 100. I called them but being a Saturday the
office was closed.

Socal, it is not a matter of me being easily offended, it is a matter
of you not knowing what you are talking about, and attempting to
convince people of something you know little off  pretending you do.
Clearly as with all legal matters the i?s must be dotted and the t?s
crossed, that goes without saying. I never said, implied or suggested
otherwise. You made a mistake thinking this must be a very difficult
thing and that you should be able to prove it... trouble is.. I know
what I?m talking about. When I don?t know what I am talking about I
say ?I think? or ?it could be? I may quote places and say things like
?so & so suggest that...?. However,  in this case you are wrong, you
don?t know what you are talking about and are attempting to make
something relatively simple (barred of course all legalities that are
not simple, i/e getting a drivers license is simple, the code that
defines the rules and regulations that drivers license is subjected
too dwarfs the Encyclopedia Britannica) into something complicated,
something that it is not.

I?ve taken the time to post this not so much for your benefit but that
of anybody/everybody else that might?ve read or will read this thread.
I will leave those two .gif files there until SA 49.02.01  or in the
Christian calendar February 1st 2006.

Eli

ps. I?m done with this as clearly you don?t know what you are talking about.

OK, you got me.  I did not say the provisional had to be filed in this
century.  Yes, Pasteur could file a one page application in 1873 or
the guy who invented the car radio in 1930.  Plus, anybody today can
file a one page application, even though it will be worthless.

If a person wants a potentially valuable patent that has a hope of
being enforceable against infringers and get an early filing date from
a provisional patent application (yes they are called applications),
then the provisional better satisfy all the 112 requirements.

Everybody who wants to protect an invention should seek advice and
guidance from a US Registered Patent Attorney/Agent.

As I said in my last post "Both of those comply with all the
requirements of the PTO today (with the exception of the spacing being
one as supposed to 1.5)."

That means that those PPAs could be filed today. In other words, all
of today's requirements are met by those two applications. I'm sorry,
if I've failed to make you understand. I simply don't know how to say
it in a simpler manner.

As I said earlier, a little knowledge is dangerous.  It is true that
the figures you posted say ?provisional? on the top and you claim that
these applications meet today?s standards; however both statements are
incorrect.

First, provisional applications only came into existence in the US in
1994 when 35 USC 111(b) and 119(e) were added to the US Patent Law. 
Therefore, I do not know what those figures you posted represent or
why they are in that format (provisional applications are not
published, they just sit in the File Wrapper), but they are not
figures showing a US Provisional Application.

Second, you have no way of knowing if those one page disclosures meet
the standards of 35 USC 112 or any other section of the US Patent Law,
since the current US Patent Law was adopted in 1952, when there was a
major overhaul of the Patent Office.  Since both patents you listed
were issued many, many years before the new Patent Law, you would have
to be Patent Law scholar to come to that conclusion.

Finally, you can believe, if you want, that a one page document can
satisfy 101 and 112.  This is America and you are free to believe or
say anything.

However, any patent lawyer filing a one-page disclosure would be
asking for a malpractice suit.

Gosh!  You guys should join forces and consider whether a "business
method" can be patented.
Regards, Myoarin

Man Alive! Debating you is like taking candy from a child.....  No
matter what you say you just dig yourself deeper and deeper. Here?s a
word of advice,  ?never ask a question you don?t know the answer to?.

Instead of giving you my personal qualifications, I?ll give you those
of the men  that said those things. The same men that have written not
one or two but several patent related books and should know what they
are talking about, being  authors/attorneys about this subject. Not
only that but according to the background information the published
works were reviewed by a team of 7 other attorneys before publication.
?For more guidance on preparing a provisional patent application,
consult Nolo's book Patent Pending in 24 Hours, by attorneys Richard
Stim and David Pressman (Nolo).?

Specifically the info cited in my second to last post came out of
?Patent Pending in 24 Hours?
http://www.nolo.com/product.cfm/objectID/1F0E4794-D236-43C3-908BF76B43DC13C2/310/
if you think their credentials are trumped by the statements in your
last post,  then, well...  what can I say...

?As I said earlier, a little knowledge is dangerous.?  The knowledge
of two author/attorneys with a combined legal experience of more than
half a century of practice, backed by the peer review of seven other
independent attorneys.... yup sure sounds like you know what you are
talking about Socal...

Hi Myoarin, 

Hey! can I ask you a question... what address do you use to view these
posts? the way I get here is;
1- http://answers.google.com/answers/ 
 then click on 'view all questions' and browse through the pages. That
never brings a thread back up to the top when people make new posts,
as it seems to be the case for some that are posting around here.

thanx.

Eli,
When I access G-A the search box is empty.  Egotistically, I first
enter my user name to see all the questions I have posted to, to see
if anyone has responded.
Then I delete my name from the box and click on search and get all
questions in the order of the most recent postings.  This is not so
transparent as one might think, any "action" on a question brings it
back to the top of the deck:  automatic or manual expiries and other
strange things that I don't understand (maybe opened comments that are
not canceled, but the commenter just leaves open and clicks on the
green back arrow).  Just clicking on search when you first access G-A
and the box is empty doesn't work.

As to this question and my previous comment, Tateti posted another
question about getting a patent for his business method, and from what
I could find, patents do not cover such.  If so, this discussion is
academic  -  well, maybe that isn't the right word.  ;)   But carry
on.
Regards, Myoarin

Cool, 

That part about entering your own user name works like a charm, thank you.
The second part doesn't work for me at all, leaving it blank and
clicking search returns a blank page. Tried with FirFox and Internet
Explorer browsers... do you use another browser?

Yes you are right, as I understand it a 'business method' in off
itself  can not be patented. For instance a 'shopping cart' concept
can not be patented as it is too generic, however a specific method to
make a better/different shopping cart can. Like Socal said "It is also
important to remember that a person does not get a patent for an
?idea? but a ?solution?  ". So yes, once again you are right,
everything after the third post is 'academic'   ;-)

thanx again,

Once again I have to say -- Elids-ga comments are SO very wrong it
should be criminal(figuratively speaking) to make them.

Business Method patents are available in the US.  [The question
concerns the US.  Other countries are different]  The State Street
Bank & Trust Co. v. Signal Financial Group, Inc. 149 F.3d 1368 (Fed.
Cir. 1998) cert denied 119 S. Ct. 851 (1999) decision is the ruling
authority.  The most famous and controversial patent of this type is
the Amazon "1-click" patent.

Just to clarify -- "specific method to make a better/different
shopping cart can" be patentable.  This example is a "method claim"
which satisfies 101.  A "Business Method" patent, which also satifies
101, is a method of doing business.  One application that was
published (I do not know if it was allowed) was for a method to store
and pay for storage of a child's umbilical cord blood, by selling 50%
of the blood and using the money to pay for storage of the other 50%. 
I am not saying this is good application or an allowable application. 
It is just an example of a filed application.

[Elids you really should study some US Patent Law, reading a book and
thinking you can answer complicated questions dealing with US court
decisions is beyond anybody not involved in the day to day handling of
patent applications.  There is a big difference between knowing a
topic, and reading a book and therefore "I know it".  At least get a
copy of the MPEP, so you can read it.  Plus, if you are this
interested in US Patent Law, take the Patent Bar (yes, I know it is
not really a law Bar) exam and become qualified to  handle patent
cases.  Just for the record are you from the US or living in the US.]

Ohh my gosh... you are entirely too obtuse for me.

I said "however a specific method to
make a better/different shopping cart can. "

and the "1-click patent." is exactly what I had in mind. lol unreal...
this is too funny lol

Ok, I felt like I had to jump in here real quick with my thoughts. 
Generally, socal-ga's advice is closer to what you need to know in
regards to filing a provisional patent application (?PPA?).

elids-ga quoted, "In actuality the term 'PPA' is a misnomer, since IT IS A SIMPLE
DOCUMENT DEPOSTI, NOT AN APPLICATION."

In some respects, elids-ga, that is correct.  However, it does not
mean filing a one-page ("simple") document.  A PPA is "simple" in that
when you file one, you do not need to take special care in drafting
what you want to claim, drafting an abstract/summary, drafting a
description/background, etc. (as elids-ga quoted) ? BUT you do need to
make sure the information is there so that these things can be drafted
using only the information included in the PPA.  THAT IS VERY
IMPORTANT.  Look at it this way.  If you want to file a one-page PPA,
the actual patent application cannot contain ANYTHING that is not in
the PPA (or if it does, the information not included in the PPA cannot
gain the benefit of the PPA filing date, which defeats the whole
purpose of filing a PPA).  Can you put everything that you need to
describe your invention so as to enable one skilled in the art to make
and use it (and to meet all the other patent requirements) in one
page?  I doubt it.

As elids-ga said, a PPA is kind of like a document deposit - the
information will not be "examined" or anything.  However, the
information that you "deposit" is important, and if/when you file an
actual patent application, anything that you want to put in it must be
in the PPA (as discussed above).

When you file a PPA, the tendency might therefore be to throw anything
and everything in it just to make sure you have your bases covered. 
The other side to that, however, is that you do not want to give away
other inventions or possible trade secrets that are not necessary to
meet the patent requirements for the invention you will eventually
claim.

In summary, you need to make sure that you include all the information
in the PPA that you will need to eventually file your actual patent
application.  I suppose it is possible that you could do this in one
page, but I think it would be very unlikely.

Those are my quick thoughts.  I'd just hate to see somebody lose
intellectual property rights because of bad information, which I think
is one of socal-ga's points.

socal-ga,

Your parenthetical about not knowing if your business method example
(method to store and pay for storage of a child's umbilical cord
blood) was allowed reminded me of a funny story.  In law school, a
first-year student came in when I was a third-year student.  He had
been a patent examiner that primarily examined business method
patents.  Our main IP professor sat down with him and asked what the
hell it took to get a business method patent (since they seem so hard,
almost impossible, to actually obtain).  The former examiner/current
law student said, "I couldn?t tell you; I never allowed a single one
in all my time there."

Eli,
I use Firefox.  If you (or I) click search with the empty box at the
bottom of this page (reading postings to a question), it just gives us
a blank page.
If I  - and hopefully you -  click out of the question and then delete
the search term in the box at the top or bottom of the page, leaving
it blank, and then search, I get my list of questions in the order of
latest posts.
I don't know if it makes any difference, but I delete the term with
the left mouse key, passing back over the letters and then hit the
space bar.  The drop-down that opens has a couple of blank lines, so
the software as registered this as a possibility.  I never tried to
click on one and see what happens.  (I have now, since I couldn?t post
this last night:  nice blue blank line.)

I am sure someone else can comment on this, but they probably have
scrolled past this question too often to want to drop by.

But Wrg2-ga did. I liked the story.  You might be interested in the
question about "patentability of a business method" if you haven't
seen it already.

Good luck, Myoarin

Hi Wrg2, 

You should know that everything I've said, EVERYTHING comes out of
books written by patent attorneys on how to do it yourself, so I would
hope that it would be correct in a little more than  "some respects".

Also I never said not to do any of what you've stated. :-) one would
hope that a person would learn how to do it before he/she went ahead
and do it, once it's done pay an attorney to criticize the work.

thanx for the comments.

Eli

ps. It just occured to me that people may think that 'a simple one
page document' means you can not, under any circumstances use any more
space than that. I never said that.

---------

Hi Myoarin, 

Thanx again, I'll try that. 

Elí

Hey Eli (and everyone else),

No hard feelings.  I just thought that if somebody read too much into
your comments, they could be mislead into doing too little, which
could cost them patent rights - I'd hate to see that happen.  For
example, your first comment said, "A provisional application is
usually a single page document . . ."  I would strongly disagree with
the word "usually" in that statement, and I think that's where and why
socal-ga jumped in.  Although I generally agreed (from what I
remember) with your quoted material, I don't think that material
actually said it is usually a one page document.  If it did, I would
strongly disagree with the authors.  Honestly, I was pretty tired when
I read through this stuff - I just skimmed it - but I think that most
of what socal-ga said was very accurate.  Your book excerpts were also
insightful - and they do not conflict with what socal-ga said.  I just
disagree with you in two areas:  (1) I disagree, as already noted,
regarding a PPA "usually being a single page docuument"; and (2) I
disagree with you when you said, "It is you the one the is wrong
Socal."  From what I remember skimming/reading, socal-ga was correct
with what he/she said.

I know I've seen some situations myself where a little more carefully
planned preventative action could have saved a lot of headaches in the
long run, so I just wanted to try to help avoid any future problems
for tateti-ga.

Fair enough, just keep in mind I haven't disputed anything of what
Socal said. I've stated and I maintain he is wrong when he said my
statemets were wrong. The problem with Socal's view is not that what
he said is wrong, but how he interprets the information he had at
hand.

1- If somebody reads more than what I said, that is not my fault. I
stand by my comments.
2- I stand by the quote "is ussually" for two reasons; one, the PPA is
not ussually used by large corporations, they go straight for the
patent application. And two,The vast majority of people that use a PPA
nowadays is the private inventor and the vast majority of inventions
that private individuals put forth ussually fit in a single page.

"I know I've seen some situations myself where a little more carefully
planned preventative action could have saved a lot of headaches in the
long run, so I just wanted to try to help avoid any future problems
for tateti-ga."

I never suggested otherwise.

Eli
________________


"The inventor of the
Theremin, the first
electronic instrument,
was kidnapped from
his New York apartment
in 1938 and
taken to a Russian
labor camp where he
later invented the
electronic bug." 

From "Patent Pending in 24 Hours"

wrg2-ga: thanks a lot for your comments!!! I have benefit from this
thread in many ways, so I would like to thank the participants
(Elis-ga, Socal-ga, wrg2-ga) very much!!!
I think that I am getting a more real picture of the subject now.
Best wishes,
Tateti

Elis-ga, wrg2-ga, Socal-ga:

I appreciate your efforts in being accurate.

Hope this interesting postings will help to others as it did to me.
Tateti

Sorry Elids, I mispelled your name in my last two postings.
Tateti

Hi all... as it happens I just filed for a provisional patent. It just
barely fit on one page. I found that simply reading the directions on
the USPTO website for filing a provisional patent were not beyond my
understanding. The directions are only a few pages. I also read the
directions for the official patent, and believe that it really is not
that difficult to do your self if you have some spare time. When I'm
ready to file my official patent I will certainly have a lawyer look
it over... I'm not sure that anyone should take that step without an
expert opinion.

I'll add another comment letting people know if the patent was
accepted, and maybe in about 21 years another comment letting people
know if my patent process was successful.

It only costs $100 for an individual to file a provisional application.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/ProvApp.pdf