Dear jwmcevoy-ga;
Thank you for allowing me an opportunity to answer your interesting
question. I noted that in your question you said, ?You must prove your
point by citing scripture?. The very nature of this statement gives
license to offer opinion based on individual perception and
interpretation of the Bible. After all, the entire Bible is subject to
interpretation depending on who one asks, isn?t it? Having pointed
that out, I will offer my personal understanding though there is
little doubt that some will share my view while others will vehemently
(and perhaps even aggressively) oppose it. Such is the nature of
Biblical interpretation.
In my own understanding of the issue, I tend to believe that the souls
of people who die are reclaimed by God (not necessarily to heaven,
though that is certainly possible) to some supernaturally spiritual
place to wait until the day when God summons man to judgment. No one
can PROVE ?ANY? position based on Biblical scripture. The best anyone
can do is to provide their own personal theories based on their
understanding and interpretation of the Bible. Here are some
scriptures to support mine.
Let?s begin with 1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-18:
4:13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those
who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no
hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God
will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through
Jesus.
4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are
alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before
those who are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the
dead in Christ shall rise first.
4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall
ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Clearly (to me at least) the bodies (physical being, remains, etc.) of
people who die simply ?sleep? ? for lack of a more accurate
description ? and wait until judgment, while the souls are with God.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:14 the Bible says God will ?bring with Him all
those who have fallen asleep through Jesus?. He couldn?t very well do
that if the souls weren?t with Him to begin with. There is an
abundance of Biblical scripture that talks about people being raised
from the dead when Christ returns. However, as you will note from 1
Thessalonians 4:14 mentioned above, God will not simply open the
graves and bring people back to life, he will bring WITH HIM the souls
of the dead that HE ALREADY HAS and replace them in their new bodies.
NEW BODIES
http://www.crossroad.to/heaven/contents/new_bodies.htm
In Luke 23:42 Jesus told the criminal on the cross beside him ?"I tell
you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus Christ Himself clearly pointed out, on the occasion of His own
death at least, that those who die go to ?paradise?. By ?paradise? did
He mean heaven? I don?t know and neither does anyone else in my
opinion (but I presume so, as do many other likeminded people).
Now let?s look at 2 CORINTHIANS Chapter 5:
2Co 5:6 Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at
home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord;
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight;
2Co 5:8 then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away
from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him,
whether at home or away from home.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
so that each one may receive the things done through the body,
according to that which he has done, whether good or bad.
You can?t get any simpler than this:
When you are IN the body you are away from God (2Co 5:6)
When you are OUT the body you are not in limbo or in some kind of
purgatory, but with God. (2Co 5:8)
The most revealing evidence in the New Testament, in my opinion, comes
to us from Luke 9:28-32 and Mathew 17:1-3 in which the Bible describes
the appearance of Elijah and Moses at the transfiguration of Jesus.
Both men were long since presumed dead (by hundreds and hundreds of
years I might add) yet both were relegated to some spiritual realm
awaiting, like the rest of us presumably, the Day of Judgment:
?Luk 9:28 And about eight days after these sayings, He took Peter and
John and James and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as He prayed, the appearance of His countenance was
altered, and His clothing was dazzling white.
Luk 9:30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
Luk 9:31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His exodus, which He was
about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep. But
fully awakening, they saw His glory, and the two men who stood with
Him.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his
brother, and brought them up into a high mountain apart.
Mat 17:2 And He was transfigured before them. And His face shone as
the sun, and His clothing was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.
What does the Old Testament say?
In GENESIS 2:7 God breathed life into Adam whom he had fashioned from
the dirt and created in him a soul:
?And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.?
In GENESIS 3:6 God told Adam ?for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt
thou return..? It can be argued than that God?s willingness to let the
man?s body return from when it came is a powerful suggestion that his
soul would also go back to where it came from; which was God. Having
said that, the logic behind this very simple and feasible argument is
that when a man dies, his body returns to its source and perishes
(?sleeps) while his soul also returns to its source, the Maker.
In ISAIAH 42:5 the Bible explains that God gives man his life and his
soul. These things clearly belong to the Lord and are valued by Him.
These are not dispensable or disposable things like the physical body
is (?...it is appointed to man once to die??). The body is made of the
unclean earth, but life and soul come from the very breath of God.
?Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched
them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of
it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them
that walk therein.?
In JOB 27:8 the writer indisputably says that when men die God takes
His Holy gift of the soul back. The body may perish and return to
dust, but God clearly reclaims men?s souls:
?For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when
God taketh away his soul?? (Incidentally, some people believe that
this verse may be the origin of the phrase "The Lord giveth, and the
Lord taketh away?, which, though it does make sense and it essentially
accurate on its face, is not scripturally verbatim and is not actually
found in the King James Bible anywhere at all.)
DANIEL 12:2 speaks of a time when God will return life to those who
have died; again suggesting that life returns to God and He restores
it at his pleasure:
?And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.?
These explanations sum up my personal views nicely:
?People who believe in God and trust in Jesus to save them go to be
with Jesus in a place called Paradise. People who do not believe in
God or who trust in their own goodness to save them go to Hades.
Later, God will judge everyone for their actions at the Great White
Throne Judgment. Non-believers are thrown into the Lake of Fire along
with Satan and his demons. Believers will then spend eternity with God
in the New Jerusalem.?
WHERE DO WE GO WHEN WE DIE?
http://www.rodsgarden.50megs.com/wheredie.htm
?Revelation 20:11-15 describes all those in Hell being cast into the
lake of fire. Revelation chapters 21-22 describe a New Heaven and New
Earth. Therefore, it seems that until the final resurrection, after
death a person resides in a ?temporary? Heaven and Hell. A person's
eternal destiny will not change, but the precise "location" of a
person's eternal destiny will change. At some point after death,
believers will be sent to the New Heavens and New Earth (Revelation
21:1). At some point after death, unbelievers will be thrown into the
lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal
destinations of all people - based entirely on whether a person had
trusted Jesus Christ alone for the salvation of their sins.?
"WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-death.html
Are there arguments and supporting scriptures to the contrary?
Perhaps, but they won?t change my views nor do I entertain or debate
them. I hope you find that my research exceeds your expectations. If
you have any questions about my research please post a clarification
request prior to rating the answer. Otherwise, I welcome your rating
and your final comments and I look forward to working with you again
in the near future. Thank you for bringing your question to us.
Best regards;
Tutuzdad ? Google Answers Researcher
OTHER INFORMATION SOURCES
WHERE DO WE GO WHEN WE DIE?
http://www.rodsgarden.50megs.com/wheredie.htm
"WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-death.html
THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED
http://www.crossroad.to/heaven/contents/dead_raised.htm
THE HOLY BIBLE
E-Sword
http://www.e-sword.net/
Blue Letter Bible
http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html
Bible Gateway
http://www.biblegateway.com/
SEARCH STRATEGY
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Clarification of Answer by
tutuzdad-ga
on
20 Dec 2005 11:33 PST
I need clarification on two items:
1) Regarding 2 Corinthians 5:6-8:
"So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the
body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by
sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from
the body and to be present with the Lord."
It could be said that Paul is referring to the Christian's eventual
permanent existence, but not necessarily the Christian?s existence
directly after physical death. Do you feel that Paul is describing the
nature of a Christian?s soul right after physical death? I don?t know
what to make of it because there are so many passages that state that
we fall asleep after we die.
. . . . . . .
It is important to note that each religion has it?s own methodology of
translation and interpretation. In my particular belief we interpret
the Bible literally in most cases with the exception of instances
where the Bible is clearly referring to the symbolic (i.e. parable,
etc). So, having said that, in my literal interpretation I do believe
that 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 is referring to the broader (more permanent
eternal state) but I also believe it speaks on the issue of our state
immediately upon death. The reason why is found in the previous
chapter in 2 Corinthians 4:10 where Paul refers to the ?dying body? of
Christ and how He is made manifest in us. Just as he rose so shall we
rise. Using that as an example, Jesus rose after death and if we are
destined to do the same then it stands to reason that we will also be
in a similar state when our bodies die. 2 Corinthians 4:9 says we are
?Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed?. This in
my interpretation means that we are not rendered non-existent upon
death.
. . . . . .
2) Regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those
who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will
bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[b] 15 For this we say to you
by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the
coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in
Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18
Therefore comfort one another with these words.
You used verse 14 to support your argument that the Christian soul is
in paradise with God after death because God ?bring(s) with Him those
who sleep n Jesus?. Couldn?t it also be read that the verb ?bring?
refers to God bringing Christians out of the grave, from their sleep?
If we look at verse 16 we see that the dead in Christ rise first. Do
you think the word bring refers to brining Christians from paradise,
or do you think it refers to the act of resurrection from the grave?
I definitely believe that God will bring the lives with him to restore
them to the ?new bodies?. The Bible speaks in many instances about our
new bodies so clearly God will not simply put new life into our old
corruptible bodies but he will restore us by restoring the life he
brings with him into new bodies he intends to give us:
Our new body will be incorruptible. Our current body is corruptible.
1 Cor 15:42-44, 1 Cor 15:52-54 (In context: 1 Cor 15:35-58)
Our new body will be glorified. Our current body is dishonorable.
1 Cor 15:42-44, (In context: 1 Cor 15:35-58)
Our new body will be powerful. Our current body is weak . 1 Cur
15:42-44, (In context: 1 Cor 15:35-58)
Our new body will be spiritual. Our current bodies natural. 1 Cor
15:42-44, (In context: 1 Cor 15:35-58)
Our new bodies will be from God, eternal and in the heavens. 2 Co 5:1-5
The truth is that no one knows for certain what this new life or new
body will be like. 1 John 3:2 says, ?Beloved, now are we the sons of
God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that,
when he shall appear, we shall be like him.?
In answer to your clarification, yes, it is possible to interpret the
Bible in the way I have indicated and also in the way you have
indicated, but the fact remains that the matter is an issue of faith.
In Hebrews 11:1 the Bile says, ?faith is the substance of things hoped
for, the evidence of things not seen. ? Unfortunately we cannot know
what the future holds after this life in terms of what will be and
will not be. Hebrews 11:3 goes on to say, ?Through faith we understand
that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which
are seen were not made of things which do appear.?
I certainly appreciate your interest in this issue and do not minimize
your confusion about an obviously elusive answer. However, I believe
that to debate the unknown is futile. Titus 3:9 says, ??avoid foolish
questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the
law; for they are unprofitable and vain.? Essentially, what happens to
us simply happens to us according to God?s will and how and what that
entails matters not in the big scheme of things. The only thing that
matters is how you live your life ? your death and state of being
thereafter is a matter only for God to decide.
Regards;
Tutuzdad-ga
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