Dr x has unsuccessfully looked for a professorship/permanent job in
physics (his work was in superconductor theory).  He has been unable
to find permanent work in his field (completed 2 post docs).

He is leaving physics and he is now applying to b-school to get a
second phD in organisational management (he says "all the math looks
the same").  no doubt some (if not most) of the schools will ask him
"why are you changing your field of study?".

I know there is no 'right' answer necessarily, since committees, and
admissions people are each different but heck, ive seen "what is the
secret to women" answered here rather thoughtfully, so I thought, why
not ask and see what comes of the asking.

background: Dr x has done rather well in his previous field, is well
respected by his peers (i know, i know.  you have to take my word for
it -- i do~!) and he has published almost 20 papers, with more than
200 citations.  his gmats are good, plenty of great recommendations --
all in all, he has (i'm hoping!) got a good chance at getting into one
of the top (12) b-schools.

so how come he didnt land a job in his first chosen field?  who knows?
 maybe he didnt play the game well enough, maybe part of it was due to
not enough luck.  maybe his work wasnt as good as he thought it was. 
anyway, he is changing, but how should one answer this question of
changing without sounding like a total loser?

any and all comments welcome.  thanks in advance for any advice!

banchan

---

Clarification of Question by banchan-ga on 23 Sep 2002 13:44 PDT

real reason he is changing: he couldnt get a professorship in physics,
the little research he has done (just research, no paper writing) in
organ. management looks interesting to him, he is hoping for a
professorship in that field, BUT if he unable to do so, he should be a
LOT more marketable than he is now with a phD in physics.

hope this helps!

banchan-ga,

There is of course no "right answer" to this, as banchan-ga points out
in the Question, but I feel I can provide an answer for the question
of "Why are you changing your field of study?" given Dr. X's
background, which will be worth at least $7. Here we go....

Let's start with Dr.X's current "life standing," i.e.
accomplishments/demonstrated abilities relevant to age: We don't know
Dr.X's age, so I gather that putting this answer in context with age
is not of prime importance to Dr. X. So, we'll act like this is a job
application, and not consider age/race/creed/gender, etc., etc. as per
all stated major corporate hiring policies.

Most notably to me, s/he's got a PhD in physics. So, this person is
highly intelligent and would be tend to be technically inclined. In
the Information Age, these are valuable assets in the private and
government sectors, including military. If we forget about not getting
the desired university teaching position, as Dr. X seems to be doing
in considering business school, we can focus on the future:

What could one do with a PhD in organizational managent combined with
a PhD in physics? How about manage a business/facility/organization
where the underlying product or service is based on the scientific
concepts of physics? i.e., Vice President of Superconductors 'R Us, or
CEO of MySuperComputer.com (HEY, I like that domain name so much I
just registered it with VeriSign!). Do you think like a business
person?, is something Dr. X might ask his/herself.

Lots of new technology will be based on the concepts of physics--
semi-conductor chips for computing devices, for example. This new
technology will be marketed and sold, and traditionally those in
control of that aspect of applied science are business people.

So, I put 2 and 2 together and get a business manager who works in
situations where the underlying business revolves in some way around
the concepts of physics.

As for the specific track, I disagree that the proposed course of
study is the best path, although this is of course only my opinion.
Here's why I disagree:

The world of business is a pragmatic, fast-moving, often ambiguously
structured environment, while educational environments are the very
picture of orderly and..."safe." Just by being in school, you're
sheltered from the very world (that of business) which you're trying
to enter. The "ivory tower" image of academia is still very much alive
today, and Dr. X already holds one PhD.

I think a second PhD might say to some prospective employers, "This
person is somewhat of an escapist who has at least to some degree
avoided facing reality." Please don't take this too literally or take
offense to this, but I am certain that if Dr. X applied for 25 jobs
with 2 PhD's and not much job experience ouside of academia (at least
none was mentioned) that surely a few of his/her interviewers would
harbor that sentiment, (although Dr. X might not realize it!)

I would counter this by getting a little leaner, a little meaner,(i.e.
more...aggresive, which is in itself a trait valued in business, and
going for a 1-3 year MBA degree rather than a 4-6 year PhD in
"organistional management." What other kind of management is there,
anyway, besides organized managment? "Hi, I have a PhD in Disorganized
Management!" See, the very title of the degree could be the butt of
jokes among those who run with rats every day to manage businesses or
who keep them afloat with high personal stakes. Even if the official
title of my degree was in "Organised Management," if asked, I would
simply call it "Management."
 

I purposely did not reveal anything about my personal background here
so that my comments would be taken at their value alone, rather than
put in context, but if you feel you would gain additional insight by
knowing something about my educational and working background, I could
add that as a Clarification.

In short, if I were Dr. X, I wouldn't concentrate on studying to be a
business-person so much as just being one. Seriously, everyone knows
that many of the world's most successful business people never even
attended college, much less graduate school. When's the last time Dr.
X registered a URL or bought a piece of real estate? There is little
ldoubt that having personal money at risk as part of some venture
provides for a good education.

Finally, as important as your educational and work experiences are, I
cannot help but reiterating what "aceresearcher-ga" pointed out in
his/her comments, with the story iof the doctor who didn't want to cut
his hair: Appearances matter. S/he who interviews well tends to get
the job, even if s/he is a little or even somewhat less qualified than
the more stellar applicant from a sheer talent perspective, but who
also happens to be awkwardly dressed and eerily shy. A lot of hiring
decisions come right down to, "Who would I rather hang out with 40-65
hours per week for at least the next year?" So consider who you really
are and what youj're comfortable with compared to where you are
thinking of going,and then do it!

Good luck in continuing your inquiries!

~omniscientbeing-ga

---

Clarification of Answer by omniscientbeing-ga on 30 Sep 2002 20:37 PDT

I'm sorry, but I realize I never actually answered the asked question
directly, so I'll do that here.

If looking for a "sound-bite" interview-type response to the question,
"Why are you changing job fields at this point in your life from
academic oriented Physics to business management?" a suitable answer,
at least in my mind, would be something like (and try saying this
aloud, and see if you could picture yourself saying somehting like
this--rewrite it yourself and speak it again until you have something
that fits you):

"To me, the really exciting opportunites in physics will likely
present themselves when applied physical processes are commercialized.
The products and services resulting from this commercialization will
be controlled by creative forces in marketing, advertising and
business. As a physicist, I'd like to maintain at least some control
of what I create or discover--AFTER it leaves the lab. And to that, I
know I need to excel in the concepts of not just physics, but in those
of business as well."

Finally, here is a link to a Physics Careers page, which includes a
seciton on those who have both phjysics degrees and MBAs, "AIP-SA,
Physics Careers":

http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/aip-sa/PhysicsCareers.html

Google search strategy: keywords "MBA and physics career"

://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=MBA+and+physics++career&btnG=Google+Search

OK, that's my $7 worth.

~omniscientbeing-ga



~omniscientbeing-ga

thank you very much!

I'm posting this as a comment because I don't know that I can
adequately answer your question.  I don't know how long Dr. X has been
looking for work, but perhaps he can handle this by putting a positive
spin on the answer.  I think part of that is in your clarification
"organ. management looks interesting to him."  What Dr. X might try is
to answer the following questions for himself.  Why does it look
interesting?  What about it appeals to him?  Does he want to put his
physics background to use in this new field (e.g. he loved physics,
but there was something about organizational management that just
spoke to him and he thought he bring such-and-such to the new field).

Regards,
luciaphile-ga

I knew a pre-med student (we'll call him Dr. Y, since he finally did
get accepted and graduate from med school), who was one of the
brightest, most self-disciplined, hard-working people in that major of
study in his class. He attended one of the top 20 US Universities in
terms of prestige and reputation for academic rigor. He got top grades
and was inducted into Phi Beta Kappa. He had previously won
organizational awards for prose writing (med school applications
require an essay about why the applicant wants to be a doctor). He had
even received 2nd and 3rd author credits on two medical research
studies published in prestigious US medical journals.

However, only some of the medical schools to which he sent initial
applications sent him secondary applications (in other words, they
were still interested in admitting him). He still believes that at
least part of the reason was that he was a Caucasion male and most of
the Universities had to comply with Affirmative Action laws. Perhaps
it is possible that was part of the reason he did not have more
success with his applications; I can neither affirm nor deny that
possibility.

Of those schools requesting secondary applications, several asked him
to come for a face-to-face interview. NONE of those schools offered
him admittance. He eventually took a job working in the biomedical
industry for a year while he continued to apply to medical schools.
One of the schools to which he applied offered him admission.
Coincidentally, it was the only medical school which did NOT require a
face-to-face interview.

Some years later, he will now admit that two factors were likely
contributors to his situation. He had long hair, which he kept nicely
groomed into a ponytail, and he was shy and awkward with people and
did not interview well in person. However, he was too proud to cut his
hair because it was a part of who he was personally, and he refused to
bow to convention. (If you think hiring decisions are no longer made
on trivialities like this, you should have seen the 48 Hours
Newsmagazine expose I saw a couple of weeks ago: in sets of two
candidates nearly identical in education and experience, the more
attractive candidates always got much warmer receptions and were
offered the jobs!)

Fast forward 4 years: Soon to be graduating from medical school, he
needed to obtain a residency. In the time since he started med school,
he had joined an organization where he got a great deal of practice
speaking in front of both small and large groups of people, and both
his verbal skills and his comfort level in public situations had
greatly improved. He swallowed his pride and cut his hair into a nice,
short, businesslike style. He interviewed with a number of residency
programs, and on match day, he was matched with his first choice of
institutions.

The point of my long, drawn-out story is this: Sometimes the only
thing lacking is some tweaking of the applicant's personal interaction
skills, speaking ability, and/or possibly how they choose to dress and
be groomed for their interviews. It's sad but true that many hiring
decisions still hinge upon superficialities like appearance, attire,
and vocal quality, rather than education and qualifications.

Before Dr. X gives up completely on his chosen field, I would strongly
recommend that he find a qualified, competent employment coach (often
called a Career Counselor -- yes, such people exist!) who will
critique him, then help him to improve all the factors involved in
hiring decisions including but not limited to: appearance, quality of
speech, content of interview responses, quality of questions asked of
interviewers, personal interaction skills, etc. Even if Dr. X does
choose to change fields, any such training and tweaking can only
benefit him in interviews for jobs in the new field as well.

Searching under "Career Counseling" or "Employment Services" in his
local Yellow Pages, or in his geographical area on Google, can help
Dr. X identify professionals in this field. I strongly recommend
in-person coaching, rather than over the phone or the internet (can
someone truly improve your interview skills if they're not working
with you in person?)

By the way, now that Dr. Y is a full-fledged attending physician in a
job he really likes, he is growing his hair back out. (Sometimes you
just have to follow the rules to get what you want: and then you can
go back to being yourself.)

Just throwing out some thoughts here. At what stage
did his application process bomb? Did he get
a successful reply to his academic vita? Was
he even able to interview? If he didn't 
get a chance to interview, why? Does his
vita need some work or the qualifications.

Are his papers in reputable journals rather
than conference proceedings. Seems like academia
still prefers those journal articles. Is he the primary
on many of those articles? 

Is he applying for the appropriate position? If he
is applying for a Professor or Associate Professor position 
and his qualifications match an Assistant Professor, that
could put him out of the running.

Has he had any research grants, such as NSF? Those can
look good. 

I know this doesn't really answer the question about what should
he say about the change in fields. You did say all comments 
were welcome though. Another comment, it is rare that 
a person is hired on as a professor at the institution
they got their PhD from. It happens, but not as frequently.
Keeping that in mind, if he has some particular school he
really wants to be at, he might not want to get a degree there.

Best of luck to your friend.