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Subject:
Borel function?
Category: Science > Math Asked by: lambertch-ga List Price: $50.00 |
Posted:
24 Feb 2006 13:49 PST
Expires: 26 Mar 2006 13:49 PST Question ID: 700581 |
Let f(x, y) be a real valued function of the real variables x and y. For any x, f(x, .) is measurable. For any y, f(., y) is measurable. Is f(x, y) measurable? Proof? Counter-example? Pointers to resources? If the answer is no, would it help if f(., y) is also continuous? Thanks. |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
It need not to be measurable
From: lophar-ga on 25 Feb 2006 03:10 PST |
Check "Counterexamples in Analysis" by B. Gelbaum and J. Olmsted; ch. 10, example 21. There presented an example (due to Sierpinski) of an unmeasurable set C in R^2 such that its intersection with any straight line contains no more than 2 points. Let f be the characteristic function of C. Then f(x,.) equals 0 for every y in R except for no more then 2 points (where it equals 1). The same is true for f(.,y). So f(x,.) and f(.,y) are measurable. But f(.,.) is unmeasurable (since C is unmeasurable). "...would it help if f(., y) is also continuous?" I dont know. |
Subject:
Re: Borel function?
From: berkeleychocolate-ga on 15 Mar 2006 19:44 PST |
Here is a proof that if f(x,y) is continuous in the first coordinate and measurable in the second one, then f is measurable in both coordinates. Fix a < b. Let S= all (x,y) such that f(x,y) is between a and b. We wish to prove that S is measurable. For rationals p < q , let Spq = all (x,y) such that for all rationals r between p and q f(r,y) is between a and b and x is between p and q. Then Spq is the countable intersection of measurable sets since f is measurable in the second coordinate. But S is the countable union of all Spq for p < q since f is continuous in the first coordinate. So S is measurable. |
Subject:
Question to berkeleychocolate-ga
From: lophar-ga on 17 Mar 2006 13:32 PST |
Please, could You explain why S is a union of Spq. Am i right that S = { (x,y) | a < f(x,y) < b } and Spq = { (x,y) | p < x < q and a < f(r,y) < b for all rational r such that p < r < q }? I cannot understand why Spq lies in S. (Of course, it is easy to see that a <= f(x,y) <= b when (x,y) is in Spq.) |
Subject:
Re: Borel function?
From: berkeleychocolate-ga on 17 Mar 2006 16:35 PST |
To lambertch: You have a point. Here's a way around the problem: Yes, S= all (x,y) such that a< f(x,y) < b. For rationals p < q and positive integer n define Spqn to be all(x,y) such that x is in [p,q] and for all rationals r in [p,q] a+1/n<= f(x,y) <= b - 1/n. Then if (x,y) is in S it is in some Spqn. And if (x,y) lies in some Spqn then a+1/n <= f(x,y) <= b-1/n by the continuity of f in the first coordinate. So f(x,y) is in S. So S is the countable union of measurable sets. |
Subject:
Re: Borel function?
From: berkeleychocolate-ga on 18 Mar 2006 17:57 PST |
Correction: .... for all rationals r in [p,q] a + 1/n <= f(r,y) <= b - 1/n . |
Subject:
Re: Borel function?
From: lambertch-ga on 24 Mar 2006 15:10 PST |
lophar, berkeleychocolate: Thank you both for your answers. I had the book "Counterexamples in Analysis" but I have yet to locate it. It's good to know that counter example. I have a question about berkeleychocolate's proof. Why is Spqn measurable? It is still a set of real numbers, not rational numbers, right? To make things clearer, let's forget about y and consider f(x) only. Then your proof would constitute a proof for "continuous functions are measurable," wouldn't it? Let f(x) = x; it seems to me that you are getting a countable union of countable points for an open interval -- I don't know what I'm missing. Best, lambertch |
Subject:
Re: Borel function?
From: berkeleychocolate-ga on 25 Mar 2006 17:58 PST |
Certainly every continuous function is measurable since every interval is measurable. The above proof relies basically on the fact that if a function is continuous then an inequality is valid for all x if it is valid for all rationals r. No, intervals are not countable. Let me try to be more detailed in the above proof. Let M(A,B,r) = {y | A <= f(r,y) <= B}. Then M(A,B,r) is measurable for all A,B,r since f is measurable in the second coordinate, y. Let N(A,B,p,q) = the intersection over all rationals r in the closed interval [p,q] of M(A,B,r). Then N(A,B,p,q) is measurable since the countable intersection of measurable sets is measurable. Note that N(A,B,p,q) = { y | for all rationals r in [p,q] A<=f(r,y)<=B}. Let R(A,B,p,q) = the cross product of the sets [p,q] and N(A,B,p,q). Then R(A,B,p,q) is measurable in the plane since it is the cross product of two measurable sets. Note that R(A,B,p,q) = {(x,y) | p<=x<=q and for all rationals r if p<=r<=q then A<=f(r,y)<=B}. Finally let S(a,b) be the union over all rational nbrs p and q and positive integers n of R(a+1/n,b-1/n,p,q). Since each R(a+1/n,b-1/n,q,q) is measurable and we are taking a countable union to get S(a,b), S(a,b) is also measurable in the plane. Let S = {(x,y) | a<f(x,y)<b}. All we have to show now is that S(a,b) is actually S. First suppose (x,y) is in S. Then clearly there is some positive integer n such that a+1/n<=f(x,y)<=b-1/n. Now by the continuity of f in the first coordinate there is some d>0 such for all x' in (x-d,x+d) a+1/n<=f(x',y)<=b- 1/n. Pick rationals p and q such that x-d<=p<x<q<=x+d. Then for all x'in [p,q] and therefore for all rationals x' in [p,q] a+1/n<=f(x',y)<=b-1/n. This says that (x,y) lies in R(a+1/n,b-1/n,p,q) and therefore in S(a,b). The other inclusion is easier. If (x,y) lies in some R(a+1/n,b-1/n,p,q), pick a sequence of rationals rm converging to x. Then since for all m a+1/n<=f(rm,y)<=b-1/n, it follows by continuity of f in the first coordinate that a+1/n<=f(x,y)<=b-1/n and so a<f(x,y)<b. If there is an error in this proof, I don't see it. |
Subject:
Re: Borel function?
From: lambertch-ga on 27 Mar 2006 10:16 PST |
berkeleychocolate-ga: Thank you so much for your detailed proof! Now I get it! For whatever its worth: I've written a letter of recommendation to Google Answers. Best, lambertch-ga |
Subject:
Re: Borel function?
From: lambertch-ga on 11 Apr 2006 05:50 PDT |
Hi berkeleychocolate-ga: I'm writing a technical paper and the result you gave constitutes a lemma with a complete proof. I would like to acknowledge your contribution in the paper. How should I do this? Please feel free to email me at lambertch@hotmail.com. Thanks, lambertch-ga |
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