I need to give a little background information before asking this
question.  Last Saturday night I was in a restaurant (to be called,
Restaurant) at about 2 or 3 am, with a group of friends.  We all asked
for the bill to be split.  Everyone had left, and me and my friend
walked up to pay our portion of the bill.  After we did, we were told
there was still a balance on the bill.  Assuming one of our friends
stiffed us, we said that this was not our problem, and proceeded to
leave.

We normally go to Restaurant every Saturday night.  We also see the
same group of "Security Guards" at a table.  About 8 or 10 of them. 
While their shirts and decorations say security, they carry holstered
handguns.

As we are outside about to get into our car and leave, all of the
security men come out, telling us that we must go back inside, and pay
the rest of the bill.  These men are not employed by Restaurant.

This happened in the state of New York, in Monroe county.

Now, follows my question.  This question has two parts.

Part I.
I am trying to understand exactly what "kind" of security guards these
men were.  They carried guns.  I have never seen security personnel
with guns before.  I would like to know what kind of legal power a
"security" person has over a regular citizen.  Furthermore, I would
like to know if they were legally allowed to harass us about the bill,
even though they were not employed by the restaurant.  They never
identified themselves as police officers, yet they administered
themselves in much the same way.  I understand that, perhaps, they may
have been police officers, but simply wearing "security" uniforms.  I
do not believe that that was the case.  I need to understand, and have
answered, what legal power "security guards" such as these may posess.

Part II.
They carried holstered handguns.  They were not concealed.  I would
like to know the laws for this, and what status a person must have in
order to carry a holstered weapon in public.  I have already come
across www.packing.org and I found it mostly unhelpful, since it only
describes laws for carrying a concealed weapon.  I would like to know
the laws in NYS about carrying an unconcealed weapon, as these
security men were.

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Clarification of Question by vcardillo-ga on 14 Mar 2006 09:15 PST

Regarding Harassment:

I said that they "harassed" us.  This may be too harsh a term, but I
will summarize the events, and allow you to interpret.

About eight of them came outside into the restaurant parking lot, and
kept us from getting into our car.  They did so by swarming around us,
continually telling us we had to go back in and pay, and surrounding
the car.  But, they never touched us.  Furthermore, once the issue was
resolved and the remainder of the bill was paid, they continued to
stand outside, laugh at the situation, and verbally harass us.  The
other person I was with was deaf, and they were making comments and
jokes as to that effect.

---

Request for Question Clarification by tutuzdad-ga on 14 Mar 2006 10:54 PST

Regardless of who these "security guards" were, you maintain that you
were not guilty of any crime and not liable for any bill. This is not
the wild west and a gang of armed men cannot simply show up and abuse
their authority (assuming they had any to begin with) without
investigating your side of the story. With that said, you may have a
viable claim of false imprisonment for which you should certainly
consult an attorney. False imprisonment is the restraint of a person?s
liberty of movement by another party who lacks the legal authority OR
JUSTIFICATION to do so.

"False imprisonment involves the total physical confinement of a
person against their will for a significant period of time (however
short). The use of physical contact or force is not necessary for a
situation to be considered false imprisonment. Any threat or use of
authority, which confines another person against their will without
the authority to do so, is considered false imprisonment. False
imprisonment must confine a person to physical or intangible
boundaries, such as a room, their current physical space, or even a
larger area like a city or state.  To be considered false
imprisonment, a person must lack a reasonable means to safely escape
the confinement."

"The remedy for false imprisonment is the restoration of the victim?s
liberty and the recovery of damages from the party responsible in a
civil case.  In some circumstances, criminal charges may also be
brought against the party responsible for the false imprisonment."
CRIMINAL LAW SOURCE
http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/false-imprisonment.html

You might consider contacting an attorney in your area who can
evaluate your case and who might be able to summon the restaraunt
owner to court to have him answer as to why these men, acting as his
agents, pursued you unlawfully and detained you against your will in
an effort to intimidate you into paying a bill you were not liable
for.

http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/criminal_law/new_york.html

It may also be interesting to know if these men were getting their
meals for half-price - as armed law enforcement and security guards
often do in local restaraunts. It sounds trivial but the truth is that
some businesses offer meals to armed personnel at a discount rate so
they will frequent the business and provide free protection. The
premise here is that it is a courtesy to men and women who serve the
public but all too often the real intent is to have them on hand so
they can "police" the place if need arises. This, in turn, often makes
the guards biased and they are willing to do whatever a business owner
asks them to do without question. It isn't right, but it does happen -
I know it for a fact, because I've been in law enforcement all my
life.

Let's assume the business owner asked the men to collect his bill, or
at the very least, had knowledge that they were going to do so on
their own but did nothing to protect you by preventing them from
taking that action. In my opinion, having 8 or 10 unidentified armed
men publicly confront a patron and his handicapped friend over an
unpaid dinner bill they did not owe is, without question, extreme
overkill and I think you might handily win a civil suit or a
settlement against the business owner if you were to pursue it.

Let me know if this solution sufficiently answers your question.

tutuzdad-ga

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Clarification of Question by vcardillo-ga on 14 Mar 2006 22:38 PST

tutuzdad-ga,

Yes, it helps greatly with the first part.

The only thing I have not been able to figure out, is about the 2nd
part.  I have gotten mixed answers as to whether or not they can
legally carry open fireams in public.  What kind of license is
necessary for this?  Is it possible that they are pellet guns, or not
actually handguns?

---

Request for Question Clarification by tutuzdad-ga on 15 Mar 2006 06:56 PST

In the State of New York the Security Guard Act 1992 mandates the
training and licensing of all security personnel. Section 2.30 of the
New York State Criminal Procedure Law defines the training
requirements for peace officers. Section 209-q of the New York State
General Municipal Law defines the training requirements for police
officers. You can find out about all these requirements and
regulations from the New York State Division of Criminal Justice
Services:
http://criminaljustice.state.ny.us/index.htm

In particular, the New York Department of State Division of Licensing
Services handles all the licensing of security guards in that state.
You can reach them by phone at (518) 474-4429, by fax at (518)
473-6648, or by email at licensing@dos.state.ny.us

In addition, any one of these approve security guard training
facilities can answer any questions you may have about the arming of
security guards:
http://criminaljustice.state.ny.us/ops/docs/sgtraining/pubs/sgpapprovedschls.pdf

It is highly unlikley that a security guard would openly carry a "BB
gun" or some other form of a "look-alike" weapon. Guards are either
armed or unarmed - period.

As I said, probably your best bet is to pursue the owner of the
business to get your best answers since these men appeared to act as
his "agents" but you should probably do this through a lawyer or by
way of a formal complaint through the Department of State to avoid
being seen as a disgruntled and harassing patron.

Please let me know if this suffices as an answer.

Regards;
tutuzdad-ga

---

Clarification of Question by vcardillo-ga on 15 Mar 2006 09:04 PST

tutuzdad,

Your replies, and hagan's replies, were extremely helpful.  I agree
that both of your replies, and his final comment, should be part of
the final answer.  I appreciate all of this help greatly.  Thanks very
much guys.  Do you see my price of $10 as reasonable for your help?

---

Request for Question Clarification by tutuzdad-ga on 15 Mar 2006 09:14 PST

I'd like to extend my thanks to hagan-ga for the additional
iinformation. Would it be acceptable to you if I merely close the
question officially and call it a day rather than try to condense what
we have discussed into a formal answer? If so, your current fee is
reasonable in my opinion.

Regards;
tutuzdad-ga

---

Clarification of Question by vcardillo-ga on 15 Mar 2006 09:43 PST

Sure, that is fine.  Thanks very much for your speedy and accurate replies!

Dear sonoritygenius-ga:

As per our discussion I am officially closing your question and
referring you to the information and comments above and below for the
answers to your question. Thank you very much for bringing your
question to us.

Regards;
tutuzdad-ga

SEARCH TERMS:

SECURITY

REGULATIONS

NEW YORK

STATUTES

ARMED

LICENSE

DEPARTMENT OF STATE

A good, detailed answer right from a law enforcement person.

Contact an Attorney, most will go Pro Bono since this case can get you
BIG sum in damages by the Restaurant. You were not on its premesis,
and yes you used their services but so did 4+ of your other friends
who were let out.. also Security Guards in ANY State cannot carry a
gun, cannot touch a citizen, and may not act as Police Officer.

Security guards can Carry a gun if "qualified"(bodyguards, large sums
of money, etc...). They have to get a special permit for guns as well
as other items (baton, pepper spray, etc...) They are not sworn
officers although they are part of the law enforcement totem pole, but
way down like bounty hunters. They have no more authority than a
regular citizen, although they are regarded higher by the police in
general.
    They did not "harass" you. They acted as regular citizens
concerned about restaurant pricing from people leaving without paying.
They may have overreacted but you never stated they represented
themselves a police but many guards act like police as this aura of
authority practically demands cooperation. Also many security
companies require police looking uniforms to further the aura.
     I would be upset with my "friends" for stiffing me and/or the
restaurant. Especially since I frequent the establishment so often,
and would not want to become a trespasser as an unwelcome patron.

Yes, contact an attorney and discuss this with him or her.  Also, go
to your district attorney and see if they are interested in looking
into this.

Your questions cannot be fully answered until someone investigates and
finds out exactly who the "guards" are.  You assumed they are guards,
maybe not.  It would be highly unusual for any resturant to employ
eight "guards".

And, private citizens don't get involved with unpaid bills.  That's a
matter for the business to pursue either by calling the police or
through a civil action.

First:  Security Guards carry no more power than a regular civilian. 
They must go through a "course" which is about 8 hours long of
watching videos.  For a security guard to carry a firearm, they must
qualify with it.  All guards must pass a background check.  These are
general rules for security guards, they may differ slightly in NY. 
But usually people simply need to pass a background check to become a
guard.

Second:  I'm not sure why people have said to contact an attorney as
there have been no damages.  Anyone can follow someone outside and
tell them they need to go pay their bill.  You say they "harassed" you
regarding the bill, but we'd really need to know how they harassed
you.  Simply saying you need to take care of your bill isn't really
harassment.

Third:  You could always as to see their id's.  Police and security
guards must carry these at all times.  IF they're security guards,
you'll likely know who employs them along with their right to carry a
firearm.

Often, security guards overstep their boundaries because they want
more power i.e. want to be police officers.  It sounds like that may
be what happened here.
Go back next Sat. and see if they're there.  Ask them if they are the
police...or just ask a waiter since he/she will know.  Striking up an
innocent, seemingly innocent, coversation with a waiter may answer
some questions.

They (security guards) may not prevent you from leaving.  They do not
have the legal right to detain you.  The problem will be proving that
they did prevent you from leaving when you wanted.

I suppose you could argue that ~8 "guards" swarming you and making
demands is a show of force.

In response to epix11:

There are no "general rules for security guards" that require only 8
hours of video training.  The rules vary widely from state to state. 
A few states require no training at all; some require 8 hours; some
require 16, or 24, and some require more than 40.  Oklahoma, for
example, requires 72 hours.

New York requires armed security officers to undergo 8 hours of
pre-employment classroom training; 16 hours of on-the-job training
within the first 90 days of employment; AND 47 HOURS OF FIREARMS
TRAINING.  They must then undergo 16 hours of recertification training
on an annual basis.
See http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lcns/lawbooks/pibeawgpa.html

And as a further response to the original question:
In general, unless the State has specifically bestowed additional
authority, private security officers have the same arrest powers as a
private citizen.  New York has not made such a delegation of
authority.  So private security officers can only make a "citizen's
arrest."

Citizen's arrest in New York is governed by Criminal Procedure Law
Article 140.30:
"140.30 Arrest without a warrant; by any person; when and where
             authorized.
  1.  Subject to the provisions of subdivision two, any person may
arrest another person (a) for a felony when the latter has in fact
committed such felony, and (b) for any offense when the latter has in
fact committed such offense in his presence."
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c25/a22.html

Leaving the restaurant without paying is a criminal offense generally
known as "defrauding an innkeeper."  In New York, it's called "theft
of services" and is governed by Penal Law Section 165.15(2).  It is a
Class A misdemeanor.  Since the offense was committed in their
presence, the security officers were within their rights in
undertaking to make a citizen's arrest -- IF you were actually guilty
of the offense.  But "theft of services" requires an unjustified
refusal to pay, and here you have an argument that you paid for your
own services, just not the other party's.

Hope this helps.  Perhaps Tutuzdad can add this as the answer to the
second half of the question, and post it as a complete answer?