.
What is the distance that a forest tent caterpillar can travel in the
caterpillar stage and later in the moth stage? I want to know their maximum
range from site of hatching to where they can ultimately lay their eggs.
Thank you
. |
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
22 Mar 2006 11:44 PST
Hi uzzz,
Just a note to let you know that we are looking into this but I'm
afraid this won't be easy to dig up or calculate. Will keep you
posted.
Till later,
hummer
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
22 Mar 2006 15:38 PST
Thanks hummer(s)
I found this one tough too (that's why I turned to the pros!).
Here is one interesting link that I have not fully delved into yet:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/1997/970310.htm
Many you be inspired...
Uzzz
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
23 Mar 2006 17:26 PST
Hi uzzz,
Thanks for the link and and for increasing the price of the question!
We have not forgotton you, have been working diligently and have also
come close. According to the following article, FTCs disperse further
than 1 km but less than "several hundreds of kilometers".
SPATIAL SYNCHRONY IN FOREST INSECT OUTBREAKS:
ROLES OF REGIONAL STOCHASTICITY AND DISPERSAL
DISCUSSION
"The dispersal capability of the species ranged from sedentary to
highly mobile. Gypsy moth has the lowest level of dispersal. Females
of this species are completely incapable of flight, and the windborne
dispersal range of first instar larvae, hanging on silk threads, is
usually much ,1 km (Mason and McManus 1981). Spruce budworm, western
spruce budworm, and larch bud moth are strong flyers; during
outbreaks, large numbers of adult moths can fly considerable distances
(up to several hundreds of kilometers), carried downwind by
above-canopy air movements (Greenbank et al. 1980, Campbell 1993,
Baltensweiler and Rubli 1999). Dispersing females of these species may
carry significant numbers of their eggs to new habitats. The dispersal
capabilities of mountain pine beetle and forest tent caterpillar are
lower than spruce budworm, western spruce budworm, and larch bud moth,
but higher than gypsy moth (Furniss and Carolin 1977, Raffa and
Berryman 1979)."
2837-2849.
Raffa, K. F., and A. A. Berryman. 1979. Flight responses and host
selection by bark beetles. Pages 213-233 in A.A. Berryman and L.
Safranyik, editors. Dispersal of forest insects: evaluation, theory
and management implications.
Washington State University, Pullman, Washington, USA.
http://www.sandyliebhold.com/pubs/peltonen_et_al_2002.pdf
"I am investigating the dispersal capability of male forest tent
caterpillar moths. I am testing the hypothesis that males from
different population densities and outbreak stage will have different
flight capacities. Moths will be flown on a flight mill to measure
flight dispersal."
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/maya_evenden/index.php?Page=3546
"Forest tent caterpillars wander extensively in the fifth (final) instar,..."
http://www.esajournals.org/esaonline/?request=get-document&issn=0012-9658&volume=084&issue=07&page=1768
Posters
P02* Aleks Argals, M Evenden - Dispersal capability of male forest
tent caterpillars, Malacasoma disstria (Lepidoptera: Lasiocampidae),
from two different populations and outbreak densities.
http://people.uleth.ca/~dan.johnson/lac2005/JAM%202005%20full%20Program.doc.
Publications
?Five ways to measure insect dispersal? University of Alberta,
Department of Mathematical and Statistical Sciences. Edmonton, Canada,
28 October, 2002.
http://www.helsinki.fi/science/metapop/english/People/Publications/TomasPub.htm
Till later,
hummer
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
24 Mar 2006 13:33 PST
Ah... we are getting closer. Some interesting reading in SPATIAL
SYNCHRONY IN FOREST INSECT OUTBREAKS: ROLES OF REGIONAL STOCHASTICITY
AND DISPERSAL.
I hope to look at the other sites this weekend.
Many thanks
Uzzz
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
24 Mar 2006 16:23 PST
Good evening
I just came across this interesting list of papers by an expert on the
spatiotemporal dynamics of forest tent caterpillar outbreaks Dr. Barry
J. Cooke-Research Scientist (Spatial Dynamics of Forest
Insects)Northern Forestry Centre,Canadian Forest Service, Edmonton,
Alberta.
There may be something in these documents which I haven't found access to:
Forest Tent Caterpillar & Pest Control
(Key References by Cooke & Roland)
Candau, J.-N., Abt, V., and Keatley, L. 2002. Bioclimatic analysis of
declining aspen stands in northeastern Ontario. Ontario Forest
Research Institute, Forest Research Report No. 154.
Cooke, B.J. On the duration and distribution of forest tent
caterpillar outbreaks in eastcentral Canada. Can. Entomol. [manuscript
In Preparation]
Cooke, B.J. and Lorenzetti, F. 2006. The dynamics of forest tent
caterpillar outbreaks in Québec, Canada. Forest Ecology and Management
XXX: XXXX-XXXX. [In Press]
Cooke, B.J., Miller, W.E., and Roland, J. 2003. Survivorship bias in
tree-ring reconstructions of forest tent caterpillar outbreaks using
trembling aspen. Tree-Ring Research 59: 29-36.
Cooke, B.J. and Roland, J. 2003. The effect of winter temperature on
forest tent caterpillar egg survival and population dynamics in
northern climates. Environmental Entomology 32: 299-311.
Cooke, B.J. 2001. Interactions between climate, trembling aspen, and
outbreaks of the forest tent caterpillar in Alberta. PhD
dissertation, University of Alberta., Edmonton, Alberta. 499 p.
Cooke, B.J. and Roland, J. 2000. Spatial analysis of large-scale
patterns of forest tent caterpillar outbreaks. Ecoscience 7: 410-422.
Cooke, B.J. and Régnière, J. 1996. An object-oriented, process-based,
stochastic simulation model of Bacillus thuringiensis efficacy against
populations of spruce budworm, Choristoneura fumiferana (Lepidoptera:
Tortricidae). International Journal of Pest Management 42: 291-306.
Régnière, J., Cooke, B., and Bergeron, V. 1996. BioSIM: a
computer-based decision support tool for seasonal planning of pest
management activities. User's Manual. Can. For. Serv. Info. Rep.
LAU-X-155. 50 p.
Roland, J. 1993. Large-scale forest fragmentation increases the
duration of tent caterpillar outbreak. Oecologia 93: 25-30.
Roland, J. 2005. Are the "seeds" of spatial variation in cyclic
dynamics apparent in spatially-replicated short time-series? An
example from the forest tent caterpillar. Ann. Zool. Fennici 42:
397-407.
Roland, J., Mackey, B.G., and Cooke, B. 1998. Effects of climate and
forest structure on duration of tent caterpillar outbreaks across
central Ontario. The Canadian Entomologist 130: 703-714.
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
25 Mar 2006 02:54 PST
Hello hummer(s)
Can you find this?:
Brown, C.E. 1965. Mass transport of forest tent caterpillar Malacosoma
disstria Hübner moths by a cold front. The Canadian Entomologist 97:
1073-1075.
Thanks
Uzzz
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
25 Mar 2006 07:21 PST
Good morning!
Sorry, we weren't home Friday so just found your clarifications today.
For some reason, I haven't been receiving email notifications of
clarifications (do you?), so I have to manually check for my GA
activity.
"Mass flights of FTC moths are common during outbreaks. These flights
can move millions of moths hundreds of miles creating a nuisance where
the flight ends. Mass flights can trigger new outbreaks suddenly where
the insect had not been a problem before. These flights are often
associated with the passage of a cold front."
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/treecare/forest_health/ftc/index.html
Will try to find the Cooke and Brown articles, but since you are
becoming such an expert researcher, if you haven't found them I doubt
if I will be able to either. There are so many variables that can make
the difference between greater or lesser distances, especially the
weather. Perhaps "further than 1 km but less than 'several hundreds of
kilometers'" or "hundreds of miles" is the best we are going to do.
Still trying,
hummers
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
25 Mar 2006 08:39 PST
Uzzz, here's a good article - hummer
NYS DEC Forest Tent Caterpillar Defoliator Report 2005
Naja Kraus, 2006
Larvae ? five instars (early spring-June, ~5-6 weeks)
NYS DEC Forest Tent Caterpillar Defoliator Report 2005
"...Fifth instar larvae may travel many yards to search for food
(Hodson 1941) and are responsible for most of the defoliation
(Fitzgerald 1995, Parry et al. 1998). FTC are the only tent
caterpillars to use a nomadic foraging strategy and will often move to
new and distant locations even after only partially defoliating a
feeding site (Fitzgerald 1995)."
Adults (July, ~5 days) As a community the adult stage may last 2 weeks
"After mating, the females fly to a different location (a study by
Hodson (1941) found they were attracted to light 2 to 3 miles from
known infestations) and oviposit all of their eggs in one batch
completely encircling a branch (?helical? masses); ..."
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/privland/forprot/health/caterpillar/defoliator2005.pdf
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
25 Mar 2006 12:34 PST
Dr Jens Roland:
Publications
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/?Pubs=Yes
Program Item Details
TITLE: Dr. Jens Roland, Insect Population Ecologist, University of
Alberta, and Researcher, Sustainable Forest Management Network
SUBJECT: #58 Forest Tent Caterpillars
http://www.innovationalberta.com/article.php?articleid=172
Roland, J. 2005. Are the "seeds" of spatial variation in cyclic
dynamics apparent in spatially-replicated short time-series? An
example from the forest tent caterpillar. Ann. Zool. Fennici 42:
397-407.
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/uploads/pdfs/Roland_2005.pdf
Cooke, B.J. and Roland, J. 2003. The effect of winter temperature on
forest tent caterpillar egg survival and population dynamics in
northern climates. Environmental Entomology 32: 299-311.
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/uploads/pdfs/Cooke_and_Roland_2003.pdf
Cooke, B.J. and Roland, J. 2000. Spatial analysis of large-scale
patterns of forest tent caterpillar outbreaks. Ecoscience 7: 410-422.
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/uploads/pdfs/Cooke_and_Roland_2000.pdf
Roland, J. 1993. Large-scale forest fragmentation increases the
duration of tent caterpillar outbreak. Oecologia 93: 25-30.
[this pdf doesn't work for me]
http://www.springerlink.com/index/U61W35840188808R.pdf
Abstract:
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/uploads/htm/ab7.htm
Cooke, B.J., Miller, W.E., and Roland, J. 2003. Survivorship bias in
tree-ring reconstructions of forest tent caterpillar outbreaks using
trembling aspen. Tree-Ring Research 59: 29-36.
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/?Pubs=Yes [unlinked]
Abstract:
http://apt.allenpress.com/aptonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=1536-1098&volume=059&issue=01&page=0029
Roland, J., Mackey, B.G., and Cooke, B. 1998. Effects of climate and
forest structure on duration of tent caterpillar outbreaks across
central Ontario. The Canadian Entomologist 130: 703-714.
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/?Pubs=Yes [unlinked]
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
25 Mar 2006 16:40 PST
Good evening hummer(s)
There must be an infestation of bugs (maybe caterpillars) in the
system. I too, do not receive any notifications about questions that I
have posted.
Just found your information. Lots to read. I will take a look tomorrow
afternoon. Thank you.
Regardzzz
U
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
25 Mar 2006 17:50 PST
Hi U,
Those links I gave you were for the Roland references you asked for, I
haven't found the rest yet.
Dr. Barry Cooke
http://www.cfl.scf.rncan.gc.ca/CFL-LFC/nos_realisations/recherche/chercheurs/fch_chercheur_e.asp?cvID=7
I thought I'd better tell you that I've written to Dr. Cooke and Dr.
Roland, hopefully they'll respond.
Till next time,
hummers
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
25 Mar 2006 17:56 PST
The Effect of Landscape Structure on Forest Tent Caterpillar Outbreaks
Barry Cooke
University of Alberta, Ph.D.
Dr. Jens Roland, Supervisor
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/biodiversity/report/1998/Cooke.htm
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
26 Mar 2006 02:56 PST
Good morning hummers
I have made contact with Dr.Barry Cooke this weekend. He may very well
be the foremost entomologist on the forest tent caterpillar in Canada.
He is a passionate scientist and a wealth of information. We have had
a lengthy telephone conversation and it was he who sent me the list of
papers. The short answer that Dr. Cooke had on how much a ftc moth
could travel was "there are no precise estimates". He stated that the
majority travel no more than a kilometre but recounted a story that in
1965 there were moths that traveled between Athabaska and Lethbridge,
Alberta- a distance of 650 kms. The influencing factors appear to be
availability of food supply (or I should say lack of it due to ftc
devastion), congestion of moths, and weather fronts. There appears to
be no predictable way (due to lack of professional study) to determine
ftc travel.
We are left to hearing accounts or best guesses. In scouring the
previous described papers I am hoping to have enough information to
make a reasonable statement with multiple references about the range
that a female forest tent caterpillar moth can travel to lay her eggs.
The best conclusion to this question, which proved more difficult than
I first thought, will probably be educated guesses from entomological
(in ftc studies) experts such as Drs. Clarke & Roland.
Uzzz
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
26 Mar 2006 11:37 PST
Hi uzzz,
This really belongs on your previous questions, but given that we
aren't being notified of GA activity, I'm putting it here to be sure
you see it.
Question # 1:
Pine Siskin (Carduelis pinus)
[cited by Parry]
Grant, J. (1959) Pine siskins killing forest tent caterpillars
(Malacosoma disstria Hbn.) Proceedings of the Entomological Society of
British Columbia, 56, 20.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2311.1997.00022.x
Question # 2:
Pine siskin LB / NF / NB / NS / PEI
Yes, I see what you mean about the maps I tried to send you, "my
session has timed out". Go to this link, search for Pine siskin
(common name), then on the next page click on the "Carduelis pinus"
link and you'll see why I tried to send you there.
http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/servlet/NatureServe
Question # 1:
Larval ontogeny and survivorship of eastern tent caterpillar colonies
"While at least 56 species of birds have been reported as predators of
tent caterpillar larvae and pupae (Witter and Kulman 1972), few birds
will regularly feed upon mature larvae, presumably due to setae and
toxicity. Young larvae, however, are poorly defended and relatively
conspicuous, and it is likely that insectivorous birds are responsible
for much early-instar mortality. This is especially likely since the
temporal occurrence of young colonies of eastern tent caterpillars
coincides with the spring migration and breeding season of many
insectivorous birds in eastern North America (Witter and Kulman
1972)."
http://www.doylegroup.harvard.edu/~carlo/JRL/32/PDF/32-089.pdf
Penn State - Research Project Outline, (project 3948), date: ~2002-03
Spatiotemporal dynamics of outbreaking and fluctuating populations
Ottar N. Bjornstad
http://research.cas.psu.edu/projects/PEN03948.pdf
Question # 3
So, you spoke to Dr. Cooke! You see, you really are becoming "a pro"
and soon you will no longer need GA. I hope you at least stay in touch
with us from time to time.
I'm not sure what you'd like us to do at this point regarding FTC
dispersal, it sounds like our original "Spacial Synchrony in Forest
Insect Outbreak" link was a good one. Let me know how you are getting
on and if there's anything we can do to help.
Regards,
hummers
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
26 Mar 2006 12:09 PST
Me again,
CA Cobbold, MA Lewis, F Lutscher and J Roland. "How parasitism affects
critical patch-size in a host-parasitoid system: Application to forest
tent caterpillar." Theoretical Population Biology 67 (2005): 109-125.
"2.1.2. Dispersal parameters
Dispersal parameters (s2h; s2p) of the forest tent caterpillar and its
parasitoids are considerably more dif?cult to estimate. In
mark-recapture experiments, only 3/3000 adult parasitoids were
recaptured (Roland and Taylor, 1995). They travelled up to 300m from
the release point, giving an idea of possible dispersal distance. The
adult moth stage of the forest tent caterpillar has been recorded to
travel on the order of 1 km or further. An estimate for parasitoid
dispersal distance is 300?800m depending on species (Roland and
Taylor, 1997, 1995). To estimate s2h and s2p we assume that 90% ofthe
host population travel within a 800?1000m radius and that 90%
ofparasitoi ds disperse a distance of 300? 800 m. Assuming a Gaussian
dispersal kernel gives:..."
"These distributions are compared in Fig. 2. Experimental data from a
variety of insects show dispersal kernels with leptokurtic tails,
consistent with the Laplace kernel (Makino et al., 1987; Taylor, 1978;
Dobzhansky and Wright, 1943; Aikman and Hewitt, 1972). In the absence
of further data, we assume a Laplace kernel for adult forest tent
caterpillar dispersal. The Laplace kernel has a ?fatter tail? compared
to the Gaussian kernal, which corresponds to rare long distant
dispersal events such as those driven by wind for example.
Mechanistically the Laplace kernel corresponds to random movement with
a constant settling rate. Although these estimates of dispersal are
very approximate, we feel, based on personal observation of?ig ht of
these insects, that they are reasonable and all our results can be
easily interpreted for smaller or larger dispersal distances."
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/jens_roland/uploads/pdfs/Cobbold_et_al_2005.pdf
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
26 Mar 2006 12:53 PST
Hello hummers
Thank you for continuing to provide information re earlier questions.
I hope that the GA techies are hard at work to get us connected to the
automatic notifications again.
Now I see the value of the links to the maps. There is quite a
resource on those pages!
On Question # 1 This link
(http://www.doylegroup.harvard.edu/~carlo/JRL/32/PDF/32-089.pdf) talks
in depth about the cousin of the forest tent caterpillar- the eastern
tent caterpillar. This is interesting material however it is not safe
to extrapolate this over to the forest tent caterpillar.
On the subject of Penn State - Research Project Outline, (project
3948) I found some interesting but inconslusive information
"For example, if outbreaks spread via dispersal from "foci" then
either habitat modification (e.g. silviculture) or direct management
of populations (e.g., spraying) of foci populations may effectively
eliminate larger area-wide outbreaks (Wallner 1987, Liebhold and
McManus 1991). Conversely, if observed spread of outbreaks is an
emergent property of simple reaction-diffusion processes, then
treatment of these ?foci? is likely to be futile. Understanding the
patterns and processes behind pest outbreak dynamics is critical to
the prediction of future damage and optimization of forest management
strategies."
The more we read... the more questions beg to be asked.
Now I see your latest post:
"How parasitism affects critical patch-size in a host?parasitoid model
application to the forest tent caterpillar "
Hmmm ... 18 more rivetting pages to go through :)
Thanks. Back to you soon
U
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
26 Mar 2006 16:27 PST
Good evening hummer(s)
Whew that was a dry one! I just loved the math part... The things that
you have to go through to get a simple answer.
Let us take the easier route and continue the layperson's questions to
those who love the scientific study of insects.
U
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
27 Mar 2006 12:51 PST
Hi U,
This month's riddle...
What lives in the woods of northern Minnesota, weighs 7500 lbs, can
fly long distances and is attracted to lights?
"The answer is one acre's worth of forest tent caterpillars.
Approximately 537 of the late instar larvae of forest tent
caterpillars weigh one pound. Assuming that there can be up to 4
million caterpillars per acre that makes 7448 lbs of caterpillars per
acre.
Residents of many northern Minnesota towns found their homes and
businesses covered with forest tent caterpillar moths the morning of
July 10th , especially if they had outside lights that stayed on all
night. The moths are definitely attracted to lights. And, they can fly
long distances in large masses. Some communities having little or no
defoliation were suddenly swarming with moths. For example, there were
no large areas of defoliation within fifteen miles of Grand Rapids,
yet the morning of July 10th, buildings and sidewalks were covered
with thousands of moths. Business owners were scooping them up with
shovels trying to keep customers from tracking squashed moths into
their stores."
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fid/july00/07200001.html
Radar Entomology
http://www.pems.adfa.edu.au/~adrake/trews/
What kind of air speed do migrating insects have?
"Answer:- Small insects probably have effective airspeeds of zero -
they just stay aloft and let the wind carry them along. Moths and
grasshoppers typically add 4 m/s to the wind speed - which is often
2-4 times greater. They also don't always head downwind."
http://www.pems.adfa.edu.au/~adrake/trews/ww_re_qa.htm#IM
"The adult moths are active fliers and can be carried for several
hundred miles on air currents."
http://www.naturenorth.com/summer/tentcat/ftent2.html
The Great FTC Migration
"Where caterpillars are abundant, their food has run out. When this
happens, the caterpillars move out....in large numbers. And speaking
of mass migrations, we are on the verge of another great FTC
migration. Wildebeests are certainly much larger than the average
forest tent caterpillar, but the wildebeest migration on the Serengeti
pales in comparison to the great FTC migration of Minnesota in terms
of the total number of animals involved. There can be as many as four
million caterpillars per acre and as much as four million acres
infested this year. Mass migrations, which have already occurred to
some extent, will continue to be obvious until mid-June when the FTC
begin to pupate."
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fid/june01/section1.html
BEHAVIOR AND ECOLOGICAL GENETICS OF WIND-BORNE MIGRATION BY INSECTS [abstract]
A. G. Gatehouse
"Wind-borne migration, in which migrants ascend to altitudes at which
they are transported downwind, has evolved independently in several
insect orders. The use of a range of observational techniques,
including ground and air-borne radars, has provided new insights into
how the migrants' behavior can influence the distance traveled and the
degree of dispersal during migration. Simultaneously in recent years,
advances in our knowledge of the genetics of migratory potential have
provided a basis for understanding how the stochastic effects of the
winds on destinations and the pattern of habitat distribution in space
and time maintain variation in these traits in populations of
wind-borne migrants. This variation, in turn, is an essential factor
in the ability of these insects, many of which are important pests, to
track often unpredictable changes in the spatial distribution of
suitable habitats."
http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.ento.42.1.475
U, I'm not sure how to proceed (actually, I think all this fluttering
is beginning to affect me :) . Let me know how it's going.
Regards,
hummers
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 03:34 PST
Good morning H
Thank you for all of the information. The riddle was quite an eye
opener! It appears that we may not find specific evidence to how far a
forest tent caterpillar moth will travel. I am continuing to email FTC
specialists. Are you receiving any replies?
U
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 03:37 PST
And I wrote GA about the challenge of not receiving notifications.
They replied quickly:
Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention. We have forwarded the
information you provided to the appropriate team for further
investigation. We appreciate your patience, and we apologize for any
inconvenience this may have caused.
Sincerely,
The Google Answers Team
I hope that this is resolved soon.
U
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 06:48 PST
Good morning, U,
Yes, I would imagine the editors have received quite a few messages
regarding the lack of notifications. I hope they fix it soon too.
We've sent out some enquiries too but it worries me that we would be
working at cross purposes if you get in touch with the same people, so
what I'll do is post possible contacts for you as I find them.
?The good news is that these insects provide a vital food source for
many foraging birds and that they should near the end of their feeding
stage by early July,? said Mr. Carmichael.
For more information please contact:
David Carmichael, Horticultural Technician (902) 368-4711.
http://www.gov.pe.ca/news/getrelease.php3?number=4156
Additional information about the friendly fly, as well as about forest
tent caterpillars and their outbreaks, is available to the public
through a partnership with Science North and the Canadian Forest
Service.
People can call 1-866-443-4040, e-mail ftcinfo@sciencenorth.ca.
Contact:
Dr. Taylor Scarr
Ministry of Natural Resources
(705) 945-5723
http://www.foresttentcaterpillar.ca/freindly_fly.html
Global Change Master Directory
"As a part of the Forest Health (FH) program, data is compiled and
produced as national coverages of insect defoliation in Canada's
forested ecosystems. Aerial defoliation surveys are used to measure
year-to-year fluctuations in insect populations for forest management
planning and have been conducted annually by Provincial, Federal, and
Partnerships of Ministries of Natural Resources across Canada. The
role of FH is to acquire these provincial scale defoliation maps,
compile national coverages, and prepare statistics on areas of
defoliation and severity of damage."
"The five major forest insects in the GIS are ...Forest Tent
Caterpillar (Malacosoma disstria Hbn.).."
"The coverages are housed in an ARCInfo-based GIS which resides in
Fredericton, New Brunswick..."
Name: RALPH SIMPSON
Phone: +01-506-452-2446
Fax: +01-506-452-3525
Email: rsimpson at nrcan.gc.ca
Atlantic Forestry Centre
Hugh John Flemming Centre,
Box 4000
City: Fredericton
Province or State: New Brunswick
Postal Code: E3B 5P7
http://gcmd.nasa.gov/records/CANADA-CGDI_Canada_CFS_ForInsectDefoliation.html
Table 4. Forest Tent Caterpillar Consecutive Defoliation by Ecozone
and Ecoregion 1980 - 1996
http://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/Forest/MX206/English/table4.pdf
Entomological Society of Canada
http://esc-sec.org/default.htm
Regards,
hummers
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 07:17 PST
Thanks again H
I am off in pursuit of answers from the people identified in your last
post. Did you hear back from Dr. Cooke and Dr.Roland?
U
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 07:23 PST
No. I'm sure Dr. Cooke didn't respond because you had already spoken
to him and none of Dr. Roland's emails worked (I tried at least 4-6
different addresses).
Good luck,
H
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 08:34 PST
Question # 1
CEDAR WAXWING
BOMBYCILLA CEDRORUM Vieillot
"Food: Waldo L. McAtee (1926) gives the following comprehensive
summary of the cedar waxwing's food:
The Cedar-bird in some places is called Cankerbird, on account of a
marked fondness for cankerworms, and it has a great reputation also as
a foe of the elm leaf beetle. In New England it has several times been
observed to clean up local infestations of this pest. The species has
been observed to clear orchards of the tent caterpillars and to feed
also on larvae of the forest tent caterpillar, the willow sawfly, the
basket-worm of cedar, and the spotted willow leaf beetle."
http://www.birdzilla.com/omnibus.asp?strType=Bent&strTitle=Cedar+Waxwing&strURL=cedar_waxwing.htm
Question # 2
LB, NB, NF, NS, PE
http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/servlet/NatureServe
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 08:51 PST
Not likely to be able to answer the question, but they may know who to contact.
Canadian Forest Service Atlantic Forestry Centre
P. O. Box 4000 Fredericton, NB
E3B 5P7
(506) 452-3500 and
P. O. Box 960 Corner Brook, NF
A2H 6J3 (709)
637-4900
http://www.atl.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/index-e/what-e/publications-e/afcpublications-e/network-news-e/FHBnews_spring2002-e.html
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 12:10 PST
Thanks again for the Cedar Waxwing info and the NatureServe link.
We are definitely on the same track. Last week I sent 20 emails to a
wide variety of people within the Canadian Forest Service in NF & NB.
So far the only respondents were individuals offering to forward my
email to someone who would be able to answer my questions. I wait.
U
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
30 Mar 2006 12:59 PST
Hi U,
We're waiting to hear back from Dr. Maya Evenden, wrote to her a few days ago.
http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/faculty/maya_evenden/index.php?Page=3546
Theoretical Population Biology 67 (2005) 109-125
How parasitism affects critical patch-size in a host-parasitoid model:
application to the forest tent caterpillar
C.A. Cobbold (a,b), M.A. Lewis (b,c), F. Lutscher (b,d), J. Roland (c)
2.1.2. Dispersal parameters
"Dispersal parameters (s2h; s2p) of the forest tent caterpillar and
its parasitoids are considerably more difficult to estimate. In
mark-recapture experiments, only 3/3000 adult parasitoids were
recaptured (Roland and Taylor, 1995). They travelled up to 300m from
the release point, giving an idea of possible dispersal distance. The
adult moth stage of the forest tent caterpillar has been recorded to
travel on the order of 1 km or further. An estimate for parasitoid
dispersal distance is 300-800m depending on species (Roland and
Taylor, 1997, 1995). To estimate s2h and s2p we assume that 90% of the
host population travel within a 800-1000m radius and that 90% of
parasitoids disperse
a distance of 300-800 m. [Gaussian dispersal kernal & Laplace
distribution formulae]
These distributions are compared in Fig. 2. Experimental data from a
variety of insects show dispersal kernels with leptokurtic tails,
consistent with the Laplace kernel (Makino et al., 1987; Taylor, 1978;
Dobzhansky and Wright, 1943; Aikman and Hewitt, 1972). In the absence
of further data, we assume a Laplace kernel for adult forest tent
caterpillar dispersal. The Laplace kernel has a ?fatter tail? compared
to the Gaussian kernal, which corresponds to rare long distant
dispersal events such as those driven by wind for example.
Mechanistically the Laplace kernel corresponds to random movement with
a constant settling rate. Although these estimates of dispersal are
very approximate, we feel, based on personal observation of flight of
these insects, that they are reasonable and all our results can be
easily interpreted for smaller or larger dispersal distances.
The boundary conditions considered in this paper allow free movement
out of the habitat into the surrounding hostile matrix. In natural
populations, this simplistic model of no edge effects is likely to be
unrealistic. Field observations for the forest tent caterpillar for
example, have found the adult moths fly loops out from the forest edge
and then return with some eventually leaving the forest entirely. Van
Kirk and Lewis (1999) derived a dispersal kernel from a random walk
that allowed for some probability of not moving at the habitat edge."
...
"The paucity of dispersal data for our study species, the forest tent
caterpillar, implies that our assumed dispersal kernel may also be
subject to error. Lockwood et al. (2002) examined the effect of five
dispersal kernels on the average dispersal success for a single
population."
http://www.math.ualberta.ca/~flutscher/Cobbold2005.pdf
U, I think that's your answer. Left to their own devices, it doesn't
seem like they travel very far ("90% of the host population travel
within a 800-1000m radius"). They require a certain amount of luck
(wind) to migrate substantial distances.
What do you think?
hummer
Residents prepare for caterpillar battle :)
http://www.cbc.ca/pei/story/pe-caterpillar-20060222.html
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
31 Mar 2006 02:47 PST
H
I concur that we have the basis for an answer. Please summarize - it
does not have to be lenghty - and post. Thank you.
U
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
31 Mar 2006 06:04 PST
U, we haven't given up yet so won't be posting an answer until at
least this weekend. Let me know if you hear back from anyone! See you
later, H
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
01 Apr 2006 02:30 PST
H
All quiet... no replies yet. Away from the computer the rest of this
weekend attending the Junos. Hope you have a nice weekend too... and
watch out for salt in the sugar bowl today. :)
U
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
01 Apr 2006 14:06 PST
Found access & found a reply:
How far can an adult tent caterpillar fly?
John Witter, Professor University of Michigan:
Not an easy question to answer. Under normal conditions, probably
about a half mile or so. If it gets caught in wind currents,it might
be carried much further. One factor to keep in mind is there may be
very small populations of tent
caterpillars that are slightly in front of the leading edge of an outbreak.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
01 Apr 2006 17:20 PST
That's fantastic, thanks, U! I think we've really made some progress,
despite the fact it felt like slogging through molasses at times.
A "half mile or so" is 800 meters or so ("90% of the host population
travel within a 800-1000m radius"). Neat, eh?
Are you up for another contact?
Jacques Tardif UWinnipeg dendrochronology
"Alanna Sutton (Forest tent caterpillar outbreaks, M.Sc. UoM, completed)"
...potential grad studies : Forest tent caterpillar outbreaks and aspen mortality
...in prep : Sutton, A. and Tardif, J. in prep. Spatiotemporal
reconstruction of forest tent caterpillar outbreaks in western
Manitoba, Canada; a dendroecological approach. Ecology 00: 00-00.
http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~jtardif/Research/research.htm
Contact:
Dr. Jacques Tardif, Centre for Forest Interdisciplinary Research (C-FIR)
University of Winnipeg
Depts of Biology/Env. Studies
515 Avenue Portage, Winnipeg, Manitoba R3B 2E9.
Tel.: (204) 786-9475, Fax: (204) 774-4134
E-mail: j.tardif@uwinnipeg.ca
http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~jtardif/Pers-Info/pers__info.htm
Enjoy the music and the razzle-dazzle,
hummer
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
02 Apr 2006 01:23 PST
H
Thank you for the new contact. An email has been sent.
U
|
Request for Question Clarification by
hummer-ga
on
10 Apr 2006 16:10 PDT
Hello U!
Just a note to let you know that we haven't forgotten about you or
your caterpillars (I'm sure I've dreamed about them!) and we're sorry
it's taking so long to post your summary. I hope it wasn't due last
week. Not to worry, you *will* have it - H's
|
Clarification of Question by
uzzz-ga
on
15 Apr 2006 03:22 PDT
Hello H
Please do not be concerned. I realize that this is a slow process. My
computer has been in the shop all week afflicted with 'death by blue
screen'. In my snail mail I just received a thick packet of info from
a kind prof at the University of Michigan. The material included
papers and reviews going back to 1969. Great reading for this holiday
weekend... I'll let you know if I come across relevant facts on
caterpillar & moth travel.
U
|
Hi U,
We're sorry this is taking so long, thank you for your patience. The
person who sometimes works with me when attempting to crack tough nuts
became rather obsessed to find or figure an answer to your question --
unfortunately to no avail, proving yet again that there may be simple
questions, but no simple answers (and that tough nuts often drive
nuts). It's always surprising (re discover how little we know of the
common world we live in/with. Nicely surprising, encouraging even
...but frustrating.
This is not the summary that you requested but rather some new
directions for you to look into. The summary has proven rather complex
to put together but we will try to put it together for you as soon as
possible (nature is calling, the Swallows are demanding their boxes,
the Bluebirds are due, etc).
In any case, please take a look at this *dispersal simulation
software*, located two nights ago. Full of promise, but...
John A. Byers, Research Entomologist
USDA-ARS, Western Cotton Research Laboratory
http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/programs/byers/jabbio.html
The sim program is available for free download from at least three URLs:
1. Chemical Ecology of Insects (current site since March2006):
http://www.chemical-ecology.net/software.htm
2. Chemical Ecology of Insects (USDA Ag Research Service):
http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/software.htm
3. Ecological Society of America (ESA) Electronic Data Archive:
Ecological Archives E082-019:
http://esapubs.org/Archive/ecol/E082/019/default.htm
4. A less complicated, less thorough(?), easier to use on-line Java version:
...see: "dispersal"
...default or custom settings, notes.
...set default but 'fly' only 1 insect several times and note
different MDD results - fly a bunch and note variability around the
mean.
...change the Standard Deviation° to 10°, then 30°, 60°, & 90° --
which is an FTC moth?
...the download program has an entry for flight speed, this only step
size & number of steps.
http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/java2/java.htm
Browse the insect related software (sites 1&2) for: "Predicting Mean
Dispersal Distance of Population".
You may view simulation sample of it, and some others, on sites 1&2.
Download the .zip files (365KB), figure out how to use them, and
'play' with the program.
Here's the file description (from ESA site):
"MEAN-DD.ZIP is a compressed zip file containing 43 files comprising
a software system for pc computers that simulates animal dispersal and
calculates mean dispersal distances. The main program is MEAN-DD.EXE
which when run will simulate a population of animals dispersing
outward from a release point. The menu allows running another program
MDD-STEP.EXE which can generate animal paths and segment them into
different sized steps to determine how the predicted mean dispersal
distance from equations is affected. Both compiled programs can
display the text and figures of the paper in Ecology (MEAN-DD.TXT).
The figures are contained in 33 files ending in .A12, .B12, and .C12.
Each figure requires 3 such files with a parent name, for example,
MDDFIG1 for Fig. 1. Other files of figures are MDDFIG2.*, MDDFIGB2.*,
MDDFIG3.*, MDDFIG4.*, MDDFIG5.*, MDDFIGB5.*, MDDFIG6.*, MDDFIG7.*,
MDDFIG8.*, and MDDFIG9.*. MEAN-DD.PIC and M-PATH.PIC are image files
for the titles on the opening screen of each compiled program.
MEAN-DD.A12, MEAN-DD.B12, MEAN-DD.C12 and MEAN-DD.P12 comprise the
opening and ending screen image of a sunset over lake Fryken in middle
Sweden. READVAL.#@! is a file generated by the compiled programs that
keeps track of the last place read in the paper."
The original e-paper explaining the hows and whys:
Byers, J.A. 2001. Correlated random walk equations of animal dispersal
resolved by simulation. Ecology 82:1680-1690.
Abstract:
"Animal movement and dispersal can be described as a correlated random
walk dependent on three parameters: number of steps, step size, and
distribution of random turning angles. Equations of Kareiva and
Shigesada use the parameters to predict the mean square displacement
distance (MSDD), but this is less meaningful than the mean dispersal
distance (MDD) about which the population would be distributed. I
found that the MDD can be estimated by multiplying the square root of
the MSDD by a three-dimensional surface correction factor obtained
from simulations. The correction factors ranged from 0.89 to 1
depending on the number of steps and the variation in random turns,
expressed as the standard deviation of the turning angles (SDA) about
0deg (straight ahead). Corrected equations were used to predict MDDs
for bark beetles, butterflies, ants, and beetles (based on parameters
from the literature) and the nematode Steinernema carpocapsae
(Weiser). Another equation from the literature finds the MDD directly,
and this agreed with the MDD obtained by simulation at some
combinations of SDA and numbers of steps. However, the equation has an
error that increases as a power function when the standard deviation
of turning angles becomes smaller (e.g., < 6deg at 1000 steps or <
13deg at 250 steps). Lower numbers of steps also increase the error.
Equivalent values of AMT (angle of maximum turn) in uniform random
models and of SDA in normal random models were found that allowed
these two models to yield similar MDD values. The step size and
turning angle variation of animal paths during dispersal and host and
mate searching were investigated and found to be correlated; thus, use
of different measured step sizes gives consistent estimates of the
MDD."
http://www.chemical-ecology.net/papers/ecol01.htm
http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/papers/ecol01.htm
If you can work your way through the statistical methodology, and...
If you can figure out the program to work for you, and (the big if)...
IF you can discover the appropriate input for the (flight) movement
parameters of the FTC, assume consistent behaviour over time in a
homogenous habitat, and ignore the effect of air currents, then this
program could/should(?) simulate an FTC radial dispersal pattern.
There are probably even more 'ifs'...
It's interesting and promising in theory (don't know how useful for
the real FTC world), but regret not to comprehend its full and proper
use and cannot devote more time to do so (e.g., input parameters for
'turning distribution type', 'standard deviation of turning angles at
a step', 'random seed number', 'step size'). Perhaps you'll have
better knowledge or perseverence -- or know someone who does! Also,
there seem to be some bugs in the program (never did get the
"MDD-step" to work properly) - or is it just me going buggy ?
--------------
Also looked into...
Aerobiology: study of long-distance movement & dispersal of organisms
by atmospheric processes. Biometeorology: (not sure yet the
distinction - aerobiology sees more use)?
North Central Regional Committee on Migration & Dispersal of Insects
and Other Biotic Agents:
"Committee Members and Affiliates" (contacts), annual reports, meetings...
Site isn't searchable - looked through some reports and meetings but
didn't find anything about FTC. Never-the-less, these folks seem
pretty serious and do quantitative Migration & Dispersal Research. If
FTC work has been done, one would think they'd know about it -- full
contact list, including a handful in Canada.
http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/cee/movement/index148.html
Movement & Dispersal-Related Organizations:
http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/cee/movement/organizations.html
Was W.G. Wellington a biometeorologist(?) in the 1950s? He was
analysing weather patterns for the years in advance of outbreaks and
the weather conditions just prior to outbreaks as significant
predictive factors. For example...
1. Weather and climate in forest entomology. Meteorological
Monographs, Boston 1954. 2:8,11-8.
2. Atmospheric circulation processes and insect ecology. Canadian
Entomologist. 1954, 86:7, 312-333.
3. Air-mass climatology of Ontario north of Lake Huron and Lake
Superior before outbreaks of the Spruce budworm, Choristoneura
fumiferana (Clem.), and the forest tent caterpillar, Malacosoma
disstria Hbn. (Lepidoptera: Tortricidae: Lasiocampidae). Canadian
Journal of Zoology. 1952. 30:2, 114-127.
Abstracts may be read at the Canadian Forest Management Database:
http://www.glfc.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/cfpm/CFPMHome.cfm?language=English
-------------------
Three animated maps of FTC outbreaks based on historical data -
instructive if not useful.
1. Great Lakes Ecological Assessment: Natural Disturbances
Animated map depicts the range of FTC infestation and defoliation (6
degrees of severity) in Minnesota over time (23 years, 1949 1995).
http://ncrs.fs.fed.us/gla/natdist/mn_ftc.htm
2. ...and for Michigan (7 years, 1953-1978):
http://ncrs.fs.fed.us/gla/natdist/mi_ftc.htm
3. USDA Forest Service - North Central Research Station
Forest Tent Caterpillar Level of Defoliation, 1970-1999:
Animated map of midwestern USA showing changes in the distribution and
intensity of defoliation (reported areas in MN, MI, & WI; 4 severity
levels; 28 years during 1970-1999). Map for each year also viewable,
listing qualitative level of defoliation by county.
http://ncrs.fs.fed.us/4153/deltawest/plantanimal/foresttent2.asp
-------------------------
The animated data maps above were found while searching for FTC
outbreak maps detailed enough to try to extrapolate flight dispersal
direction and distance from. No success and, since no way to
distinguish point to point movements, questionable in any case.
Provincial and state reports and tables listing gross area of
defoliation data track total change within a given area but don't
account for sub-populations, their separate emigration and immigration
movements and mergings. Gross area change factors and radial change
distances may be calculated - but that's not the same as dispersal
distance from a given sub-population focus(?). Assuming that the
smaller the area, the fewer the sup-pops, the closer to a sup-pop
dispersal one gets(?), then might not detailed historical data be
helpful? This may* be an example of such data, expressed as maps
(Unfortunately, we don't have the Arc-Info GIS software required to
use the information - we can see the data files but not the maps):
Canadian Forest Service | Pacific Forestry Centre | Forest Health
Network Archives | Pest Data for British Columbia:
...in re: aerial survey / historical data for BC
http://www.pfc.forestry.ca/entomology/pests/index_e.html
Data Description:
"Aerial detection surveys are conducted to detect and monitor annual,
visible vegetation damage primarily caused by insects. Aerial
detection surveys are intended to detect new activity, to monitor the
trend of ongoing activity, to provide general location information,
and to subjectively rate levels of defoliation. Manually mapping such
activity has quantitative and locator accuracy limitations and does
not maintain the accuracy standards as most data found in GIS
databases.
Briefly, aerial detection pest surveys are generally carried out from
fixed wing aircraft where observers manually sketch each infestation
site onto 1:100000 or 1:250000 scale basemaps. The observers sketch
infestation sites by drawing polygons around the outer perimeter of
the infested area on the map. Ground checks and other sampling methods
are carried out to evaluate the subjective ratings. Often very small
polygons are represented by a single point. Then using visual
observations, the observer subjectively, based on many years of past
experience, records the defoliation severity or mortality of each
polygon. Sketch maps are then digitized using Arc Info."
Each polygon coverage contains the following items:
PEST - The pest type for the specific polygon
REGION - The region that this coverage is located in
NTS_NAME- The location name of the specified mapsheet
NTS - The National Topographic Series mapsheet number
SCODE - The infestation severity for the specific polygon
1 = Light (1-10% stands killed)
2 = Moderate (11-29% stands killed)
3 = Severe (30% + stands killed)
4 = Gray/Dead (previous infestation)
5 = Not infested
YEAR - The year for the infestation survey
HA - Total area (in hectares) of the specified polygo
The BC aerial survey maps data for FTC:
Forest Health Network Archives | Pest Data for British Columbia | FTC
37 data files for 37 years, 1944-1996
"Forest Health Network Aerial detection data files in zipped ARC/INFO
export format."
http://www.pfc.forestry.ca/entomology/pests/bc/ftc_e.html
Annual recorded aerial survey data for 1944-45, 1951-54, 1957-64,
1971-78, and 1982-96.
Is this suitable for some rough measurement of annual changes???
...extrapolation of dispersal distances???
-----------------
A group of appropriately interested/interesting folks for you to query(?)
LEPS-L: The Lepidoptera Listserver:
http://www.yale.edu/peabody/collections/ent/ent_LEPS.html
-----------------
...Along the way, have accumulated info/resources in re: monitoring of
insect populations, moths, FTC. Is that of interest to you?
--------------------------
Think stochasticly:
Stochastic (from the Greek - aim at, guess):
1. Shorter OED: pertaining to conjecture.
2. Webster's Collegiate: random (stochastic variable); specifically,
involving a variate at each moment of time (stochastic process).
3. BioGlossary (www.biology-text.com): A process with an
indeterminate or random element as opposed to a deterministic process
that has no random element.
Thank you, U. May your FTCs be few and far between.
H x 2 |
Clarification of Answer by
hummer-ga
on
23 Apr 2006 19:31 PDT
U, have you seen this? Worth a try?
Yahoo Group: TILS-moth-rah
"Welcome to TILS-moth-rah. MothRah is produced by: The International
Lepidoptera Survey (TILS)
It's all about moths, moths and more moths. A place for questions and
answers, to exchange information, and post post those unknowns
All moth related topics are welcome, be Nice!"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TILS-moth-rah/
H
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
uzzz-ga
on
27 Apr 2006 08:37 PDT
Hello H X 2!
Thank you for the link to the Groups. I'll see what develops.
U
PS: I would have responded earlier but the notification service is still not fixed.
|
Clarification of Answer by
hummer-ga
on
29 Nov 2006 10:43 PST
Hello Uzzz,
Oh dear, oh dear, you are still waiting for that summary! :( I'm so
sorry, I guess that we really o.d.ed on caterpillars and needed a
break, with the best of intentions of getting back to it. Oh dear, oh
dear.
Yes, I will miss your challenging questions but I'm sure GA will morph
into something else, it will be interesting to see what transpires.
Take care of yourself, uzzz,
hummmer & co
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
uzzz-ga
on
26 Dec 2006 14:08 PST
Hello hummer(s)
Hope you are having a very relaxing & pleasant holiday season.
I don't know whether you are aware that the remnant of GA was down for
some time today. All links etc. to GA came up with "Unable to process
request. Please try again later ". The cold swat of the *very end of
GA* was felt... loud and clear. I issued a request for access to my
"paid for" answers and lo & behold the site came back up. A
co-incidence? Maybe. In any case we all have to expect access to our
information may soon be shut down for good. All the former
Researchers' links from Web-Owls etc. were not functioning too.
Behind the scenes I expect that work is underway for a new GA style
forum. So far the other wannabees don't quite cut it. I sincerely hope
that an equivalent or better appears soon.
All the best in 2007!
Regardzzz
U
|
Clarification of Answer by
hummer-ga
on
30 Dec 2006 14:19 PST
Uzzz, I just discovered your note and I've not much time left to
respond! May your future be full of Hummers but free of forest tent
caterpillars!
Take care, U, I'll keep you updated as to the whereabouts of the ex-gars.
hummer
|
