Dear Queen Ha

I've just read your Answer on Mormons which triggered something that I
have often wondered about.

In my local library, for example, there are loads of microfiches on
Family History. These have apparently been supplied (or even possibly
donated) by the Mormons.

No, I don't live in Salt Lake City or even Utah.

I'm talking about Hove Library here in the UK.

Having said that, the Library has recently been renovated and I'm not
sure that the microfiches have survived the updating.

As far as I know, there is not a huge Mormon community in this here
neck of the woods but, as their only means of identification is
apparently by their underwear, this is difficult for me to assess.

But even if I were to see the underwear in question I have no idea
what I should be looking for.

Puzzled of Hove

Hello again, Bryan!

Another probonopublico question! I?m doubly flattered! Your question
is like a tree with many branches?answering one aspect often leads to
more and more questions, which also introduce more questions, and so
on and so forth. I?ll try to get to the crux of your question. Here?s
what I?ve got.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

BACKGROUND: THE IMPORTANCE OF FAMILIES

Family relationships are of the utmost importance in the LDS Church.
From an early age children are taught that ?families are forever,? and
this mantra adorns the walls of many homes of members of the Church. A
marriage performed and ?sealed? within an LDS temple is essential to
establishing this eternal link. Because of this idea that family
relationships persist beyond the grave into the next life, it becomes
each member?s opportunity to research and come to know members in
their families that have passed on before them. In 1995, the
leadership of the LDS Church issued a proclamation about the
importance of the family. You can read the full text on their official
site.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A WELDING LINK

A scripture passage frequently referenced by Mormons is one in the Old
Testament, Malachi 6:5-6. It refers to a turning of hearts of fathers
to children and vice versa. The LDS Church teaches that this refers to
genealogy and temple work.

?Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the
great and dreadful day of the LORD:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the
heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the
earth with a curse.?
http://scriptures.lds.org/mal/4/6#6


Joseph Smith, the prophet who restored the LDS Church in 1830, taught
that families are reliant upon one another for salvation. He speaks of
ordinances performed in the temple, which is one of the strongest
motivations for Mormons to do genealogy. This passage comes from the
Doctrine and Covenants (a collection of modern teachings and
revelations), Section 128.

?The earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link
of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some
subject or other?and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism
for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can
they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made
perfect without those who have died in the gospel also.?
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/128/18#18

Mormons view it as their sacred and vital responsibility to establish
this ?link? between family members, living and deceased, and in so
doing, effectively ?turning the hearts? of parents and children toward
one another.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TEMPLES AND ORDINANCES

Temples serve many purposes, and one of them is for worthy LDS members
to receive sacred ordinances viewed as necessary to their salvation.
To preserve the sacred (but not ?secret?) nature of the temple and its
ordinances, after a temple is dedicated only worthy Mormons, as
determined by interviews with local church leadership, are permitted
to enter. When a new temple is constructed, and before it is
dedicated, there is an Open House period where all of the public is
invited to tour the inside and ask questions about temples and their
purpose.

The following quotes come from the FAQ section about temples on the
official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

?To members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the
temple is the ?House of the Lord.? It is a sacred building, and after
its dedication only faithful members of the Church may enter. Inside,
members learn more about the purpose of life and make covenants to
serve Jesus Christ and their fellow man. In addition, they participate
in religious ceremonies that reach beyond mortality, such as baptisms
on behalf of deceased ancestors and eternal marriage.?

. . . 

?Regular Sunday worship, instruction and other social and recreational
activities occur in Latter-day Saint meetinghouses, or chapels. In
temples, on the other hand, faithful members receive specific
instruction about the purpose of life and their relationship to God.
There they take part in family-oriented ordinances, both for
themselves and in behalf of deceased ancestors. Sacred ordinances
available only in temples make it possible for individuals to return
to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.?
http://www.lds.org/temples/faq/0,11264,1904-1,00.html


Boyd K. Packer, one of the general leaders of the Church, gave an
oft-referenced talk on the temple and its purposes. He discusses the
seemingly ?secret? nature of the temple and its goings on. He speaks
of the desire to share the specifics of temple worship with those who
have prepared themselves for that knowledge.

?We do not discuss the temple ordinances outside the temples. It was
never intended that knowledge of these temple ceremonies would be
limited to a select few who would be obliged to ensure that others
never learn of them. It is quite the opposite, in fact. With great
effort we urge every soul to qualify and prepare for the temple
experience. Those who have been to the temple have been taught an
ideal: Someday every living soul and every soul who has ever lived
shall have the opportunity to hear the gospel and to accept or reject
what the temple offers. If this opportunity is rejected, the rejection
must be on the part of the individual himself.

The ordinances and ceremonies of the temple are simple. They are
beautiful. They are sacred. They are kept confidential lest they be
given to those who are unprepared. Curiosity is not a preparation.
Deep interest itself is not a preparation. Preparation for the
ordinances includes preliminary steps: faith, repentance, baptism,
confirmation, worthiness, a maturity and dignity worthy of one who
comes invited as a guest into the house of the Lord.

All who are worthy and qualify in every way may enter the temple,
there to be introduced to the sacred rites and ordinances.?
http://www.lds.org/temples/purpose/holy/0,11707,2028-1,00.html


A practice that is (as far as I am aware) unique to the LDS Church is
that of performing ordinances for those who have died without a
knowledge of the Gospel of  Jesus Christ or without the opportunity to
receive saving ordinances themselves. In order for members to do these
ordinances the recipient?s genealogy needs to be performed and
submitted to the Church. In this way an accurate record can be kept.
This is a major reason why the LDS Church places such a high
importance on genealogy and family history. Ordinances are performed
by proxy, with members acting on behalf of deceased family members and
others. The idea is that this deceased person, who did not have the
opportunity in this life to receive the ordinances available in the
LDS Church, now has the opportunity to accept or deny the work that is
performed on his or her behalf, maintaining the ability to exercise
free will or agency (Mormons are Christians and believe, as most
Christians do, in the eternal nature of our spirits or souls). Here is
an explanation from the official website of The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints.

?For the millions of people who lived before the Restoration of
Christ's Church, temple ordinances were not available during their
lifetime. Even today, millions live and die without ever hearing the
name of Jesus Christ or without accepting the gospel he taught.
Provision must be made, then, for those who have died without that
opportunity.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all
saving ordinances are to be performed on earth on behalf of the dead.
Latter-day Saints stand as proxies for their own ancestors in these
ceremonies, including baptisms and sealings for husbands and wives and
for parents and children. All temple work is valid only if it is
willingly accepted by each individual prior to the Resurrection.
Performing temple ordinances receives strong emphasis in the Church.
Members of the Church are taught that they have a religious obligation
to trace their own genealogies and perform temple ordinances for their
ancestors.?
http://www.lds.org/temples/familyhistory/0,11267,1906-1,00.html


As for the sacred undergarments, they are worn as a symbol and
remembrance of covenants made within the temple. There is symbolism
involved in wearing them, but this is not generally discussed outside
of the temple. It is often said that ?it is an outward expression of
an inner commitment.?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Church has an excellent website to assist people in researching
their own genealogy. It is called Family Search and can be found at:
http://www.familysearch.org/

There is an informational website that has answers to basic questions
about the Church and its teachings as well as other resources.
http://www.mormon.org

This is a site with links to a number of family history and genealogy
resources. It is quite an impressive list.
http://www.cyndislist.com/lds.htm

This article talks about how the Internet has made researching
genealogy much easier. It also discusses the proliferation of family
history centers, both in the U.S. and worldwide.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,40-1-2925-12,00.html

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A BRIEF NOTE ABOUT ENGLAND

Interestingly, the British Isles were the first place that
missionaries were sent in the early years of the Church. As early as
the mid-1850s, men were sent to preach the Gospel and bring converts
to the Church. Many of the members who eventually settled in Utah were
originally from England, or children of British parents. In fact, the
current Mormon prophet Gordon B. Hinckley served his mission in Great
Britain in the 1930s. His official biography can be seen at:
http://www.lds.org/newsroom/biography/0,15609,3959-1----37,00.html

Another site that may interest you is the Official LDS Church site for the UK.
http://www.lds.org.uk/

According to a 1997 statistic there were just over 170,000 members of
the LDS church in the UK.
http://www.mission.net/england/bristol/british_mission.html

Here are some statistics about the worldwide membership, available on
the BBC site. European membership is over 400,000.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/features/stats.shtml

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I hope that this information answers your questions, Bryan! Thank you
so much again for requesting me! If you have need of any further
clarification, please let me know how I can help.

Sincerely,
Queen Ha
(Boquinha-ga)

Search strategy:
Personal knowledge
Perusal of the official LDS Church website: http://www.lds.org


Search terms:

LDS church members population UK
LDS church members statistics UK

P.S. As an aside, the horse-drawn carriages seen in Pennsylvania
generally belong to the Amish rather than the Mormons. There are a
number of similarities between the two churches, but that is another
topic for another time!

Brilliant, Queen Ha, Many Thanks!

You've answered my Question and more.

All the Best

Bryan

Ask a mormon about it. They can not wait to tell you about it.  Be
ready for a sales job.

I'm waiting for this answer as I recently discovered my great great
grandfather had been a 'high Mormon priest'. Opened up a whole section
of the family tree that had previously been a mystery. It appears they
loved to document everything, and there are minutes of every meeting
these priests had available online now, dating back to the mid 1800's.
 A little O.C. if you ask me.  But B. Dylan said 'don't criticize what
you don't understand' . . . and so I won't.  What I don't understand
is how member of the family lineage can become a Mormon after they
have died; you see this documented when you go through the
genealogical records.  Very curious.

And what about those undergarments?   The old time high priesthood
Theosophists could be identified by their silk undies, but . . . ?


***

I saw many Mormons, in horse drawn carriages on the side of the
highway,  whilst driving through Pennsylvania on my recent trip south.

Steph53

Timespacette, regarding your relative who was a Mormon high priest:

I learned a great deal about Mormonism many years ago when I had a
Mormon boyfriend. At first, I was impressed to learn that he was a
high priest; I assumed that this was a position of great esteem and
power within the Church, but my boyfriend modestly set me straight. In
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the concept of
"priesthood" is quite different from the elite ministerial priesthoods
of most Christian denominations. Virtually all adult Mormon males who
are in good standing with the Church are priests; the majority of
Mormon males over the age of 35 are high priests.

Steph,
I expect that the people you saw in Pennsylvania were Amish or Mennonites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonite

Myo

Dear Bryan,

Thank you so very much for the 5 stars, kind words, and the generous
tip, too! I'm so glad to have helped. Thank you!

All the best,
Queen Ha (Boquinha-ga)

Thanks for that information, Myoarin ;)

Steph53

thanks Pink, that puts things in perspective a little more . . . 

ts


***

Necro-conversion is an amusing concept

If there is an afterlife, then there's probably rather a lot of cross
ancestors, who seriously resent their altered faith.

Pascal would advise against such conversions, if the involuntarily
converted exist, they could give there meddling descendants a rather
hard time
- better not mess with the dead 
- not when there is a chance that they will give you a thorough kicking

I must use that argument next time I get pestered by doorsteppers

Incidentally I remember a newspaper story about some Mormon Priests
who were stopped in the UK, they had some rather vicious military high
tech automatic rifles.
It turned out that they were arms salesmen.

frde-ga,

Perhaps you missed a paragraph in your reading of the answer. The one
that says this:

"The idea is that this deceased person, who did not have the
opportunity in this life to receive the ordinances available in the
LDS Church, now has the opportunity to accept or deny the work that is
performed on his or her behalf, maintaining the ability to exercise
free will or agency (Mormons are Christians and believe, as most
Christians do, in the eternal nature of our spirits or souls)."

It's not an altered faith. Agency is a BIG part of the Mormon faith.
It would go very much against church beliefs and practices to "make
someone" switch religions.

Hope that helps clarify things for you!

Sincerely,
Boquinha-ga

Boquinha-ga  . . . are you still there?

 this is a very interesting question . . .

can you define 'agency' in relation to 'free will'?

All of this seems to presume that there is someone living who can
somehow determine what the deceased prefers.  Do the Mormons feel they
have an inside connection on this?  A kind of official seance?  When
they induct someone into the church who is deceased, do they ever get
the message that perhaps 'dey don't wanna?'

curiouser and curiouser,

ts


***

Hi Timespacette-ga!

Agency is basically the right to choose. 

http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-602-12,00.html
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-7,00.html

And no, there is no seance nor is someone living determining what the
deceased prefers. Basically, the living perform these "saving
ordinances" by proxy for all those who have died (hence the interest
in genealogy). Those spirits of the deceased are then able to choose
(exercise their agency) to accept or reject the work that has been
done for them (work that they could not do for themselves without a
body). (See, the body is viewed as a blessing by Mormons--having a
body helps us gain experience in life). Hope that helps!

Sincerely,
Boquinha-ga

What a comical concept

a) the dead have free will
b) the dead get an option of converting
b) but only if the living perform some rites

I wonder, perhaps dead ancestors are busily converting their living descendants
- given that they have a lot of time on their hands they would be a
lot more effective than the living, and they don't need to root around
in parish records
- they can just ask their newly arrived mates

Hey Bryan,

Thanks for the memories . . . :)

Sincerely,
Queen Ha