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Subject:
hydrogen
Category: Science > Technology Asked by: marinibug-ga List Price: $20.00 |
Posted:
10 Jun 2006 10:28 PDT
Expires: 10 Jul 2006 10:28 PDT Question ID: 737000 |
Is hydrogen a realistic fuel of the future (when the oil runs out) when it takes more energy to produce it then the hydrogen yields itself? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: elids-ga on 10 Jun 2006 10:40 PDT |
It would be a lot more productive and cost effective to use battery instead of Hydrogen fuel powered vehicles. But, filling up is a lot more profitable, so the petroleum industry would be more interested in developing this technology (hydrogen) despite of the dangers involved than investing in developing the efficiency of batteries. There is a pretty good movie/documentary about it 'Who killed the electric car' www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ |
Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: frde-ga on 12 Jun 2006 01:34 PDT |
Hydrogen is currently a bit dangerous to transport - they currently have fuel cells that work on it - what would be useful would be finding a stable way of transporting it in liquid form - about 20 years ago I heard of some 'earth' that absorbed hydrogen with a weight to power ratio similar to that of petrol. I reckon that there is quite a lot of scope for producing hydrogen from eletricity generated from tidal power. It is simple clean technology and does not need to be particularly efficient. Personally If I were running an oil major, I would be looking at building two tier tidal dams - for electricity and derived products. |
Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 12 Jun 2006 06:47 PDT |
You're right that Hydrogen currently takes more energy to produce than it provides. That is a very losing battle. But if we don't try hydrogen to see how it goes, no one will have incentive to make hydrogen technology better. Ideally, hydrogen technology will advance far enough in the future so that it becomes a positive energy flow. |
Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: richyrich304-ga on 29 Jun 2006 11:20 PDT |
Firstly, oil will not necessarily run-out; it is more likely that it will be superseeded. If you think about it when oil supplies fall short the price will go up and up and other technologies will become cheaper (relative) to oil. Another possibility is that oil will stay cheap but a new technology will be so good and so cheap that it will replace oil. Either way oil will be more expensive than the new technology and consequently there will be no need to drill it. (There is a famous quote which is something like "the stone age did not end because they ran out of stones and the oil age will not end because we run out of oil") With regards to hydrogen energy, it all depends on technology and if I could predict the technology of the future I will not be attempting to answer this for a mere 20 bucks! My comments so far have not been very helpful so I will now try and write something which kind of answers the question. There is no doubt that there will be a technology in the future that replaces oil. It is impossible to predict which technology will win the battle and when oil will be replaced, it could be hydrogen although it could be electric cars or bio-fuel cars or something completely new - who knows? I think that the forthcoming "technology war" is similar to what happened a 100 years ago. Then no-one knew how cars would be powered. Believe it or not but at one time 30% of US cars were electric and steam cars were marketed too! But the oil combustion engine won the war. In a few years there will be a similar competition between competing technologies and consumers will choose the best technology. With reagrds to hydrogen proper I can see no reason to rule it out, despite the inefficency of process. What matters is not the effiency but the cost (and other considerations like carbon might be factored in through government regulations and taxes). However, I have been concentrating on cars for good reason. The inefficency of the process does rule it out for electricity production (why produce electricity from hydrogen if it takes more electricity to produce the hydrogen in the first place?) but it does not rule it out for automobiles. This is because other factors like how long the hydrogen fuel cell lasts will be important. For example, suppose that an electric car needs recharging every 100miles but a hydrogen car needs topping-up every 500 miles. Even though it takes a load of electricity to get the hydrogen people would prefer the hydrogen car to the electric because they don't want to constantly stop and charge-up their car. Therefore hydrogen might be the fuel of the future for cars, but it can only be the fuel for electricity if we find a much more efficient way of getting the hydrogen. |
Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: eestudent-ga on 08 Aug 2006 21:02 PDT |
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It is an energy storage medium. A battery. A very expensive battery. |
Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: jack_of_few_trades-ga on 09 Aug 2006 05:44 PDT |
Eestudent: "Fuel is material with one type of energy which can be transformed into another usable energy. A common example is potential energy being converted into kinetic energy, (as heat and mechanical work). In many cases this is just something that will burn." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel "a substance that can be consumed to produce energy" ://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:fuel&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title Is the hydrogen not consumed to produce energy? I'm not flat out disagreeing with you because I don't know much of anything about fuel, I'm curious from your post if I simply don't understand how the hydrogen is used. |
Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: elids-ga on 09 Aug 2006 13:54 PDT |
I believe his comment is a reference to the fact that breaking up water to get Hydrogen takes more energy than the Hydrogen will produce. So it could be thought of as a medium to store the energy you used to break it up physically take that energy to another location then put it to use. Much like charging a battery would be. |
Subject:
Re: hydrogen
From: veconofix-ga on 15 Aug 2006 09:58 PDT |
There are a few advantages to hydrogen power. Those folks who refer to hydrogen as a "battery" are essentially correct: it's just a device to store energy. It has a few advantages: Hydrogen is fairly lightweight It stores a fairly large amount of energy for its weight It can run a fuel cell, piston-type motor, or turbine It burns very cleanly, producing only water as a byproduct It's easy to produce by several means: if you have a cheap source of electricity you can make it out of seawater. The tidal idea has promise! Another thing: hydrogen can be made at the source of the electricity, stored indefinitely without any loss, and transported to wherever it is needed. You could "fill up" with hydrogen very quickly, whereas with batteries you would either have to wait a bit for them to charge, or have some sort of exchange system, where you'd leave your battery pack and replace it with another fully charged one. Batteries have a few disadvantages, especially in cars They aren't very efficient. I don't know what the efficiency is for hydrogen production, but the best a lead acid battery can do is about 15%-20%. Thus if you use 1000 watts for an hour to charge a battery, you'll only be able to get 150 to 200 watts for an hour out of it! (or you could get 1000 watts or so for about 10 minutes: you get the idea! You lose 80%-85% of the power you put in!) Some of the newer batteries (non lead acid) have better efficiency, but the very best still only get 30% or so. Batteries are heavy, expensive to buy, and generally last about 5 years. If you buy a hybrid you can purchase an extended battery warranty for 10 years, but they charge $2000 for the warrranty! (I think the battery pack is over $5000) There are other energy storage devices in the works, so it is hard to say what we will end up with in the future. Batteries may become more efficient and cheaper. Capacitors are getting bigger and bigger, and they are quite efficient: many VCR's use a 2 farad capacitor instead of a battery for backup! They used to say a 1 farad capacitor would be the size of a boxcar: these 2 farad ones are about 2 inches in diameter and a half an inch thick! One thing that will become interesting with electric and other alternative fuel cars as they become more popular: who's going to pay for the roads? The local state and federal government tax gas and diesel quite heavily to pay for the roads. An electric car owner wouldn't be paying that. If electric vehicles become more popular, expect some sort of yearly tax or somesuch to be enacted. Of course any "fill-up" scheme like hydrogen or ethanol would use the existing tax strategy. Speaking of alcohol: it might be the fuel of the future! It can be produced biologically: I could see genetically engineered bacteria, plankton, or whatever sitting in the sun making alcohol all day out of sunlight and grass clippings! |
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