How many people have been killed in Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas
during the last 10 years or how many are killed each year on average?

(I'm interested in this to compare these numbers to the civilian
killings of Israel in Lebanon during the last 2 weeks to make a
personal value judgement on the matter.)

Limiting data to those killed in Israel by terrorist attacks claimed
by Hizbollah and Hamas may give you too small a number. There are also
other groups blowing up Israelis and themselves.

Also, its not valid to equivocate like this.  Hezbollah and Hamas have
deliberately targetted civilians.  At the same time, they launch
rockets from civilian centers, essentially using innocent Lebonese as
human shields.  The blood of dead civilians used as human shields is
on the hands of those who hide.

Sorry, no, your statement is incomplete, frankcorrao-ga.  "The blood
of dead civilians used as human shields is on the hands of" the
Isreali government and military, who seem to think that it is okay to
kill civilians in retaliation for terrorist attacks.

I love the Jewish people, but I detest the Israeli State.

It is ok to kill civilians if your enemy chooses to attack from within
civilian centers.  That is an unfortunate consequence of war.  Placing
military assets near schools and the like is a war crime under the
Geneva convention.  Blame for collateral damage because of it is
squarly on the shoulders of anyone who would use such tactics.

Nelson, whom exactly does a so-called "Palestinian" suicide bomber in
a Sbarro pizzeria kill?

The history of retaliation in this area has long been discussed. But
the simple fact is that given land to form their own State, the
Philistines did not begin securing funding for the building of
schools, a university, a judicial center, or an orphanage; they
elected terrorists to run their government and began lobbing rockets
from Gaza into Israel and building a tunnel for the specific purpose
of invading a nation and securing hostages.

"Jihad is our path. Death to Jews." is the mantra the nations
surrounding tiny, democratic Israel live by.

From various sources:

Between 1987 and 1993, 174 Israelis died in suicide bomb attacks. In
actions against occupants of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, 1,162
Palestinians died during the same period.

From December 1987 to 1992, a Palestinian uprising in the
Israeli-occupied territories, the intifada, claimed more than 1,500,
mostly Palestinian, lives. Over 12,000 people, including 500 Israelis,
died in the Israeli invasions of Lebanon in 1978 and 1982.

The period from September 2000 through February 25, 2004, saw 547 Arab
Islamic terrorist murders and approximately 2,832 Arab Islamic
terrorist woundings against Israelis. This is based on 132 Arab
Islamic terrorist attacks with (average of 4.8 deaths and 22.0
woundings per attack) according to Israeli Defense Forces figures.

The entire death toll after almost 60 years of near-constant attacks
from its neighbors and Israel's struggle to protect itself from the
extinction promised by its enemies: More than 120,000. Three wars, in
1948, 1967, and 1973, killed an estimated 100,000 people (Israeli
losses--1948, about 6400; Six-Day-War, about 750; Yom Kippur War,
about 2700).

An estimated 2,600 Palestinians and 800 Israelis died between
September 2000 and September 2003.


Israel is our sole friend and ally in this entire region. The United
States and other free, democratic countries cannot trust the Arab
countries any more than you can trust a person that is repressive,
abusive, dictatorial, bigoted, theocratic or a momma's boy (I threw
that one in for my friend, Terry. Run, I tell you, run!)

markvmd-ga, you are correct.  Palestinians kill civilians.  Israel
kills civilians.  Neither group can take the high road.  One is as bad
as the other.  The Bible says "an eye for an eye, a tooth fo a tooth",
so I guess that makes it all better.

By the way, I'm not sure where you're going with "Israel is our sole
friend and ally in this entire region".  The U.S. does not actually
need Israel for anything.  They need us.

I only wish that the Israeli govt. were run by the intelligent,
level-headed Jews that I know, respect, and love in New York.

Nelson, you are quite right to say they need us. however, we also need them.

Part of the strategic plans the US maintains-- and there are literally
millions of pages of analysis in them-- is the use of Israel in the
event of a serious, nuclear exchange in the middle east. We cannot
trust any other nation to allow us to operate bases in their countries
for any length of time so it falls to Israel to let us operate in the
region.

This option has not been used because of the extreme opposition to
Israel from the Arab countries. The base we used in Saudi Arabia,
ostensibly (even officially) a Saudi base, is the subject of such
animosity that only the strong dictatorial power of the Saudi
government kept it from being disbanded (or attacked).

Even one of our most ardent supporters, Kuwait, may not be strong
enough for us to use as a platform in the event of a serious regional
war. Thus, our lone trustworthy ally is little, freedom-loving Israel.

To veer even farther away from Uebber's question...

For the most part, Israeli forces do not target civilians. Hamas, the
PLO, Hizbollah, Al-queda, every other nut job splinter group or
faction operating in the area, specifically does target civilians.

Furthermore, guerrilla fighters almost by definition do not wear
uniforms or belong to an established army. When such a person is
killed in a military action, the death is counted as a civilian death.

As Israel is about 1/50th the population of the US, each murder of an
Israeli citizen-- and keep in mind there are Arab Israelis that are
being killed as well-- needs to be scaled up by fifty to give an
American a comparative idea of how many were killed. Israel has had
several 9/11's worth of terrorist attacks over the decades. Their
military has had several Iraq's worth of losses as well.

Finally, to say that one is as bad as the other is to ignore the
history. In 1948, on the day Israel came into existence, all the
surrounding countries attacked it because they refused to recognize it
(attacking a nation you don't recognize? Silly). The Six Day War was
(technically preemptive) response to a blockade and military buildup.
The War of attrition was started by Egypt to get back land it had lost
during the Six Day War. The Yom Kippur War was a sneak attack against
Israel. The 1982 invasion of Lebanon was a response to cowardly
attacks from within that country, much as the current foray is.

Such attacks on the US would result in a response of overwhelming
destruction; just look at what we have done in retaliation for the
September 11th attacks-- invaded two countries and caused the deaths
of tens of thousands of people, disrupted global peace, interrupted
the flow of petroleum, unbalanced world trade, and thrown the United
Nations into its worst identity crisis ever. Makes Israel's actions
seem tame by contrast.

Until the Arab nations and Muslims stop annoying themselves with
Israel and begin taking care of their own extensive problems, I cannot
see a solution. Gaining the Gaza, the Palestinians had an option to
work toward their own good; not surprisingly, they blew it up--
literally. Rather than live in houses built by the Israelis, they
destroyed them and lived in the streets. A few days later I expect a
few of them felt kinda stupid when they began whining about not having
anyplace to live. Of course, there was that nice, cozy tunnel Hamas
was digging...

Interesting

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/qana-directors-cut.html