HELP! PLEASE!! I have very deliberately tried to express the situation
in unemotiveand factual bullet-points, with a minimum of speculation
and
judgement:

0.	My wife Alice will not forgive me, and does not trust me,
principally on account of my deception of two/three years ago ? before
we married. Our once-loving relationship now seems a cold and bitter
shell, and I wonder constantly whether "staying together for the kids"
-- my daughter and my step-son -- is the right thing to do. Any ideas?
1.	I met Alice, a funny and extremely spirited beauty, nearly five
years ago, and fell in love instantly. I had never fallen in love in
my 35 years. We have gone on to marry and bear a daughter. (How
transcendent is love? She smokes, drinks heavily, and was a single
mother. In the abstract, each of those things would?ve been
show-stoppers; in the flesh, well, I just fell!)
2.	I actually dumped my ex-girlfriend Betty for Alice. Alice is angry
that I did not tell her at the time that I had not ended my previous
relationship with finality: she thinks my behaviour was caddish in the
extreme.
3.	Alice deplores my having cheated on Betty. In the early months, I
told her everything, and had admitted to cheating on two previous
girlfriends. Alice was the first person I ever fell in love with, true
head-over-heels stuff.
4.	As it happens, Alice?s mantra is ?All Men Are Dogs?. That includes
her ex-husband; and her father, who was not there as she grew up. I
don?t suppose I did anything to disabuse her of her canine
theory. (Mention any public figure to her, and she WILL tell you who
they?d slept with or cheated on. I write all this for nothing except
for context.)
5.	The real issues I had were Alice?s heavy smoking, bouts of
vomit-inducing heavy drinking, her foul mouth, her hair-trigger
temper, and frequent lapses into a state of extreme anger. I was
naively passionate about having her having a great relationship with
her mum; and I wished she?d relax and let people (myself included)
just be.
6.	Particularly in our first year together, Alice assured me airily
that she?d stop smoking ? and definitely before we started having
kids.
7.	Alice and I met in her country, where I stayed job-hunting for
seven months, before returning home. For the next two-and-a-half
years, our relationship was long-distance. In retrospect, those
conditions were especially conducive for insecurity and mistrust to
take root.
8.	For some of the long-distance years, I maintained contact with
Yvonne, a former female friend in my country. We were platonic, but
had years in the past had a smooching encounter. That last detail I
kept from Alice; but nonetheless she expressed discomfort with the
level of contact I had with Yvonne. Apparently I replied "I?ll take
care of it" ? but what I subsequently did was hide continued contact
from Alice. Things came to a head when I went with Yvonne to a good
friend?s party ? after a spat with Alice.  I made inappropriate
contact with Yvonne?s boobs, although again no sex of any sort ensued.
(I?d sworn that that would never happen ? not that I ever planned to
go even that far.)
9.	When Alice next visited my country, the whole scandal blew up. I
admitted my misdemeanours in a series of Q&As. Alice was very, very
distressed at my deception and indiscretion.  We arrived at a
resolution, and called Yvonne to agree that we would sever contact
forthwith. (They?d spoken two or three times previously: Alice had
called to condemn me/us both. Etc.)
10.	Unfortunately, Yvonne called the next day to "say good-bye
properly, and thanks for having been a friend". The call degenerated
into a brief shouting match, with Yvonne ringing off declaring "I know
you won?t tell/haven?t told her the whole truth!" I didn?t and don?t
know what she meant. There was no sex, and no pledging of troths, and
no disclosure of e.g. Alice?s private information. In the main we met
platonically, saw one, two, maybe three films, talked endlessly about
my lengthy job hunt/business ideas, and worked together on a major
training presentation that I delivered to a one-off client. In any
event, there has been no contact since. That was more than two years
ago.
11.	Alice is not over it. 
12.	I have often/always sworn ? in earnest ? on my soul, my daughter,
my mother etc ? about the extent of my wrong-doing in the past, and on
the absolute limits of my conduct in the future. (My pledge was
"Everything I do or say will be as though I had you at my shoulder.")
13.	Alice often bewails ?my? not having let her have the "last word"
against, or physically confront, Yvonne, when the issue came to light
two years ago.
14.	Nowadays, she sometimes says touching was not the issue ? the lies
were. On the other hand, she also sometimes says I?ve given her "body
image" issues. She no longer undresses/dresses in my presence, and she
wears two or three layers of clothing to bed. Sex? Perhaps three times
this year (as of Oct). The last time, she?d been drinking a bit.
15.	We have infrequent affection, and frequent argument. In our most
heated fights, we yell about separation/divorce, but we both are
steadfast in our mutual refusal to give up our daughter.
16.	We are in a cycle or spiral of depression. Sometimes I fear she
is... unhinged.
17.	She has come to exhibit what I can only label extremely bullying
behaviour, and, starting from guilt and contrition, I have fallen into
being diffident and subservient. I don?t which came first: her
"bullying/abuse" or my guilt-borne diffidence.
18.	Now I often lapse into moods in which I feel much taken advantage of: 
a.	Alice owed substantial sums of money in her country. While she was
still abroad, I wired her the equivalent of a few thousand dollars to
clear the debt. Months later, she confessed tearfully to having
gambled those funds away. She was pregnant with our baby at the time.
Now that she is here and working, I have offered her a break from
helping with household bills, so she can send money home to erase the
debts. She is hardly doing either: I do practically all the bills, and
the debt remains uncleared;
b.	I expend a lot of time and money on the step-son, whose father has
always taken negligible interest;
c.	I?m home alone with the kids till bedtime; 
d.	I often buy presents and surprises ? largely unappreciated; 
e.	I?m solo on bills ? notwithstanding her frequent defiant
declarations of "I will pay you back every penny!!!" etc; and in the face
of her NOT clearing down pre-existing debt, but instead accumulating
more debt in this country.
f.	I don't want a medal, but simple acknowledgement/appreciation that
I AM trying will do me just fine. But I sometimes feel it is too much
to ask.
19.	She often 'phones home late at night, after work -- drinking or
drunk, (supposedly?) out with people from the office. Drinking etc
with them is the only time she has "a real belly-laugh..." When she
comes home, there?s no predicting what we have: fired-up argument
about Yvonne, stony silences, friendly chat, stressed-out diatribe
from her on how *"&%^ her job is, or plain neutral /polite
conversation re logistics, kids, travel, etc. Having said that, we can
start on any footing, but then (at Alice's whim) segue from pretty
much any topic onto the Yvonne topic. It drives me to distraction, and
quite probably explains her reluctance to come home on time.
20.	I boil up in anger when she smokes around our daughter, and say
she has no respect for the lives of the kids (including when they were
unborn, i.e. pregnancies). I generally feel she has no respect for
anyone (except for her absolute idol, a dead musician).
21.	She won't come with me to marriage counsellors ? all of whom
express surprise at her continued reaction. I no longer tell family
etc that this is still going on: even a year ago there was incredulity
that after the baby etc things hadn't changed. They haven't: I never
imagined that anyone would ever curse at me, spit in my face and
launch four-letter tirades against me ? in front of our young children.
Still less did I ever imagine I would remain with such a person ? "for
the sake of the kids".
22.	Nothing seems to steam her up as my "inability to cope with her
inability to cope" ? and my helplessness at what to do. "I know you
give me presents and treats and stuff; and you have the kids alone all
night after work; but you can?t buy me... I know what you ought to do,
and it?s staring you in the face. But I?m not going to tell you: I
didn?t tell you how to f**k me over, but you did..." Etc. What on earth
does she mean?!
23.	Alice?s so-called solution: me to go with/for an/any other woman,
as she is no longer "emotionally available" to/for me. I, of course,
want nothing like that. Having said that, I do oscillate between
wanting to repair things, focus on the kids and establish our dream
business; and itching to give thunderous vent to my anger and abscond
with my daughter -- as I believe the courts will never award me
custody.
24.	She calls me a leech, a hypocrite, a coward, a c**t, etc. Last
Sunday night, in front of the six-year-old, and just before leaving
the house for the night -- destination unknown: "I hate you and I hope
you die and rot in hell!!!"
25.	NEED: What is her "obvious" solution? And, more generally, how
best do I/we salvage which of the following:
a.	Daughter?
b.	Pride??
c.	Respect???
d.	Relationship????

"All of the above" would be ideal. But what is real?

---

Clarification of Question by athenz-ga on 10 Oct 2006 17:13 PDT

All,
Thanks for your comments so far. I feel moved to add a few points, as
objectively as I can:
 - I WAS unfaithful to Alice - and, as I had told her, to my two
previous girlfriends before her. (Previous to those two, the boot was
on the other foot: I was cuckolded.) In Alice's case, it was not
sexual, but I did betray her trust, and I recognise and regret that
DEEPLY. I let her down, and I let myself down in failing so signally
to live up to the ideal and image I tried to portray of myself. It was
hypocritical behaviour, moreso as it came at a time when I was trying
to get us to address our other issues by focusing on "values".
 - Alice has good reason to have been bitter and angry. The romantic
in me, however, refuses to reconcile with the idea that maybe "love
WON'T forgive everything." Three relationships ago, my girlfriend
cheated on me. It was rough, and a new experience, but I forgave and
moved on. Objectively, though, I realise that that was MY choice, and
I cannot dictate or even harbour expectations of how someone else
deals with such a situation.
 - I have had several - seven, perhaps 10 - counselling sessions over
the two years - one-on-one and over the 'phone, secular and religious.
They did help some, but like this forum, I wonder if there is
something about my account of the situation that evokes what, to my
way of thinking, is sympathetic comment/insight. I don't mind people
being tough on me: my wife is, and I feel that the steps I take had
best be tough, too, else I'll be unprepared to surmount Alice's tough
(OK, rancorous) stance.
 - I HATE having allowed myself to slip into this servile, docile rut, guilt or no.
 - Alice and I have been in a cordial spell for four days. She said
she felt guilty for over-spending and -smoking on a drinking/clubbing
night away from home. She's away on business now. Her birthday's
coming up, and she's warning me to not plan or buy her anything, as
she's too depressed to celebrate.
 - Sometimes she's  c u t e  and  c u d d l y  (e.g. now, on phone);
other times she's  c r u d e  and  d e a d l y. Too often, I don't
know which to relate to, which persona is interacting with me.
 - The Web sites to which byrd-ga pointed us are very good and very
insightful. Thanks, byrd.

---

Request for Question Clarification by nenna-ga on 17 Oct 2006 12:05 PDT

Hello athenz-ga,

Based on the information you have provided no one can give you a right
or wrong answer. We can however point you to links for both sides of
the coin that may help you to make an educated decision about your
situation and offer advice. Would that constitute a sufficient answer?

Please respond and let me know and I'll be more than happy to do this work for you.

Nenna-GA

---

Request for Question Clarification by nenna-ga on 31 Oct 2006 14:34 PST

Hello again,

Without a response to the clarification I can not continue to research
this question. Please respond as soon as possible so that I can
continue to search with   the information you provide me.

Nenna-GA

Before you make any irrevocable decisions, please read EVERYTHING on
these two sites:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com
http://www.marriagemax.com/

Best of luck to you, Alice, and your daughter,
Byrd-ga

I think it's almost always a bad idea to stay in a marriage for the
children's sake. You're just providing your children with an unhappy
household and memories of fights that their parents had, and possible
causing them unnecessary damage.

It sounds to me (from your tale of events) like Alice IS unhinged. You
probably don't want to hear this, but there's most likely someone out
there who is perfectly nice and normal and whom you can have a fine
relationship with.  I think she's messing with your mind because it's
the first time you've been in love. You can fall in love more than
once in a lifetime, pain resides over time, and it might be the best
thing you ever do for yourself. But next time, be careful to know the
person first. Falling in love instantly can cause problems, as you
have found out.

The way you describe them, things might have gone quite a bit farther
than the regular conflicts that marriage counseling can help with --
regardless of whether there's still room for it or not, maybe you
should attend individual counseling, in order to reduce your anguish
and clarify your view of the situation. If things keep stagnated or go
worse, you might want to make a change in your life -- for you and for
your child. If so, consulting a good family lawyer could help -- do
not take for granted family law issues such as custody or whatever
before asking for professional advice. Just my two cents.

I agree with Byrd-ga, the two web sites she cited are excellent.
Besides that, don't wait for her to agree to go to counseling, start
alone! You need to talk about this to gain perspective, and who better
than a professional?

"for child's sake":

There are lots of studies about children from broken marriages that
suggest that they have many more problems in life than other children.
 But there are few if any studies comparing these kids with those who
suffer through bad marriages, whereas there are people who definitely
feel that a bad marriage can be a worse environment for raising kids
than that of a single parent.

It sure does not sound like the situation will get better, on the
contrary, which won't be better for the children.

Regards, Myoarin

My advise would be to get out, take your daughter with you and have
little contact with her. She does not seem like a very nice person to
be with. In the long run would you be happy subjecting your daughter
and yourself to it forever more?

usrhlp

Athenz,

Thanks for the clarification.  
My understanding of it is that you are suggesting that most of the
comments have blamed Alice's weaknesses for the whole problem and that
you feel you share more of the responsibility for the situation than I
(at least) considered.
This may be true  - both ways:  your responsibility and my (for one) understanding.
Nonetheless, your willingness to seek counseling speaks for you,
Alice's refusal to do so, against her.  Depending on how you presented
the problem to those persons, they may have reinforced your feeling of
responsibility for the situation, perhaps also because they were/are
only in a position to suggest what you could do to change it, AND
because that is their role.  They want to save marriages and can only
work with persons who are willing to talk to them and counsel those
individuals about what they could do that might improve the situation.
 They aren't likely to say outright:  "I can't help you unless your
spouse joins in the counseling," or "This is a hopeless situation,
regardless of who is at fault, get a divorce."
If you feel:  "I HATE having allowed myself to slip into this servile,
docile rut, guilt or no," is this a result of your trying to do what
counsellors have suggested?  The answer really doesn't matter, since
you can't go on for ever feeling like that.
  
Alice has an attitude towards men that probably isn't going to change.
 She is "cute and cuddly" on the phone.  That is perhaps a return to
the way you communicated/courted for half the time you've known each
other.  "Distance lends enchantment."

I think that you should talk to divorce lawyer to find out what you
would be getting into.  Alice has been through it before.  Maybe the
thought of another one will make her want to accept counseling, maybe
it won't.

I wish you all the best, Myoarin

My dear athenz-ga,

You are so very welcome. You'll see from both sites, particularly the
second one, that it doesn't necessarily require the full cooperation
of both spouses to be able to make a difference in and turn around a
marriage for the better. I truly hope you'll be able to do that for
you and Alice, as well as for the ultimate benefit of your daughter.
There is nothing I can add that isn't already there somewhere on one
of those sites. May you find that which best helps you all.

My very best wishes to you and your family,
Byrd-ga

hi, it seems to be a very very difficult situation, and you have my
respect for experiencing it everyday.
I have seen very very personally what happens to children that grow up
in an environment like this. it affects our entire life, how we view
relationships in general. its like moving through the world thinking
"will this be like my parents life".
sometimes its better to move on for the childs sake.

Athenz...

Has Alice ever been diagnosed for any phsycological illnessess?

Her behavior sounds like she may have a Narcistic Disorder or a myriad
of any other personality disorders. Her reaction, and her continual
focus on an action that happended once years ago, is totally "off the
wall" to me.

I studied psychology and human behavior and this woman's behavior is
very suspect of a serious psychiatric disorder.

Steph53

I would leave because a relationship should just click like a clock
without 1 person trying 2 make it work. But it is totally your choice
MCH Helping Relationships

With no intention at all of venting or ranting, this sounds much like
my late first wife, a Cuban refugee whose father had been a high
ranking police official under Batista.  I, too, after 33 years to heal
from the worst time of my life, believe there is some mental illness
in your wife as there must have been in my first wife.

I was raised Catholic, and did not believe in divorce.  But, the day I
realized -- in all seriousness -- that I was going to murder her if I
did not get away from the incessant screams; curses; and all around
emotional abuse, I changed my mind about divorce.

My son did okay in life, is now a college professor with an excellent
wife and really loves his little daughter. The girl took therapy for
eight years in the Air Force to deal with the physical abuse and
battering she suffered at her mother's hand and is a stay at home mom.
She was able to reconcile with her mom and forgive her before her mom
died.

I sometimes contemplate that if I had murdered her, the girl would
have been spared that horrible battering, but when I think about it, I
realize it would have been even more terrible for her to be a little
girl whose mother was murdered and whose father was in jail for life.

In 1973, men simply did not get custody, no matter how bad the mother
was. My daughter has admitted that she is well aware she would have
been better off with me than with her mom, not just for the battering,
but also I was much able to deal with her extremely high i.q.

When my first wife died of pancreatic cancer, as terrible as it really
is to admit, I was relieved. Never again could she harm me or my
children or grandchildren.

I try to live my life so no one, or at least not very many people, are
relieved at my death.

The best possible choice is to find a really good attorney, learn how
to document her erratic behavior, and ALSO DOCUMENT YOUR EXCELLENT
PARENTING. (One good thing to take to court is a large picture album
with you and the children doing things -- at the park; at the pool; at
church; at school.)  TRY TO GET CUSTODY OF HER CHILD, THEY ARE
SIBLINGS, AND SHOULD BE TOGETHER, AND IT DOES HAPPEN.  (A lot of
judges refuse even today to believe a mother can be a bad parent, and
say they want to hear, not what someone is doing wrong, but what
positive you can do for those children.)

If it takes a year or more to get sufficient documentation to suit a
really good attorney, take it!

Sorry to  bring up my own misery, but I can tell you after 6.5 years
married to an unbalanced person, I became a much stronger person.

I did not need to read your long essay to get the idea. My opinion is
that you should get a lawyer who will work hard to give you custody of
the child. Having come from a good Catholic family I grew up with an
alcoholic father always in the house. The result? Despite being very
intelligent and ambitious, I too ended up an alcoholic with serious
psychiatric disorders.
 
 When I finally got into intensive treatment for these problems I lost
my job and gained a witch for a wife. We'd been married fifteen years,
but the next fifteen were a roller coaster of very good times, and
very bad, until the bad far outweighed the good. I had to convince
myself that I was ready to divorce her before that message got
through. The time for my putting up with all the screaming, abuse, and
craziness was over. I told herthat  she better go back to her
psycologist and also get a lawyer (that I would pay for, if needbe)
 
   Almost overnight, the woman changed into the loving and caring
person I thought that I had married. To this day, I don't understand
what made her crazy and what cured her. I am still somewhat a believer
so maybe it was God's work.

   Unfortunately, we only had one more year for happiness. Within two
years my wife was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and died in
only a year. She fought the disease as hard as she fought me, but
finally had no recourse but to give up.

   Looking back, I believe that I did do as much as I was capable of
in the marriage. I behaved well, worked hard, improved our living
conditions, got a new job and earned enough. At this writing, nine
years after, I still miss her. My daughter does too, but she had been
deeply scared by the home situation and as a thirty-something woman is
still coping with some lasting effects.

   You might as well get out at a young age though and find someone
who is not crazy. Try hard to get full custody of the child too.

    Good luck my friend.

I haven't read any of the other suggestions, because I want to keep my
head clear and only act with a sense of what I get from your posting.

What comes across perhaps most powerfully is how stuck you feel. As if
there is no way out of the situation you are in. You are looking for
an answer, you are even offering money for an answer, which in truth I
think you already know yourself.

Yes you have behaved badly to your wife. You have been dishonest, you
have betrayed her trust.

Does she have to stay with you?

No she doesn't.

Do you have to stay with her?

No you don't.

The difficulty and confusion comes out of the situation with the children. 

First of all it seems to me that you need to establish the following,
and without getting into a "he said she said" emotional response.

You need to establish whether or not your wife is a fit mother for the
children. You need to establish whether heavy smoking, drinking and
behaviour which suggests an inability to cope is a healthy environment
for children.

If your response to that is to feel defensive of your wife then ask
yourself the following:

- have you exaggerated her behaviour in your posting? (because it
sounds quite extreme from what you have said)

- who are you defending in this? and if it is NOT the children, then why not?

Your primary concern is, I believe, to yourself. By holding yourself
with a profound respect, and by expecting others to treat you fairly
is the ONLY way to impart such learning to your children.

It is no good staying together for the sake of the children if all
they will learn is how painful relationships are, how disfunctional
relationships are, and so on.

Ask yourself if you are prepared to leave your wife

a) at all - can you live without her?

b) with the children - can she look after them?

If you truly believe that she should not be left with the children
then it is your duty to leave your wife and fight tooth and nail for
the custody of your children.

What do you mean you would not get custody? Why not? What are you not
including in this that would mean so?

Because if this statement is based on an assumption about mothers
always getting custody, then I think you are shirking your
responsibility.

Perhaps, deep down, you want someone to justify your leaving of your
wife without your children.

And this too, is up to you.

If your wife is not a terrible woman, if indeed she is a fit mother
who looks after her children well, then perhaps inside you are telling
yourself that by leaving YOU then become the terrible person.

What are your beliefs about marriage and about parenting?

Family is about proving your commitment and responsibility. You can be
a good father and not live with your kids. You can live nearby. You
can see them regularly. It will not harm your children in the long
term to understand that Mum and Dad are separate people with separate
needs, who both love them equally but who cannot live together.

Try to let go of any feelings that by ending your relationship with
their mother, you are letting them down. You are not, you are
honouring yourself.

Honouring yourself is the best gift you can give to your children. By
seeing this in you they will learn to do it for themselves.

Look at how you are diminished by your wife's beahviour. And look at
how in turn, you diminish her through your witholding of information.

It is great that you want answers to this situation. Sometimes in life
it is so difficult to see the wood for the trees. You can feel like
you will never get out of where you are, and you can do nothing to
help yourself.

I suggest that your wife's anger at your "inability to cope with her
inability to cope" is in fact anger because she wants you to save her.

You can't save her. You can only save yourself. It may well be that as
long as you are there and apparently available to help then she will
never get better. If you left, she might find herself responsible -
and a bit of responsibility can go a long way.

Why would you not be helpless? You did not get married for this. One
gets married to be involved in a mutually supportive relationship.
Yes, that means ups and downs, but if one person is constantly down,
then it could be that the dynamic of the relationship is supporting
that.

"I know you give me presents and treats and stuff; and you have the
kids alone all night after work; but you can?t buy me... I know what
you ought to do,
and it?s staring you in the face. But I?m not going to tell you: I
didn?t tell you how to f**k me over, but you did..."

I understand your urge to understand comments like this - but this is
a mixed message essentially borne of your wife's need to project her
anger onto you that you have been unable to rescue her.

It means "keep giving me presents. I want them. I don't think you look
after the kids enough, which is to say you are not 50% responsible for
them [is this true?]. I know what I want to do. But I want you to take
responsibility and action for me because I don't know how to do it
myself. I don't think I will ever forgive you for the things you have
done which have hurt me."

That is the best approximation I can make of it.

I feel for both of you in this situation. You are both in a lot of
pain, and you need help. My advice would be for the moment, to do
nothing drastic. You have managed thus far and you can do so a little
longer.

Get yourself a good long term therapist and start to look at your own
issues without the involvement of your wife. You can then begin to
separate from her in a healthy way.

Once this occurs, everthing will become clear. 

And that is a promise.