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Subject:
Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
Category: Reference, Education and News > Education Asked by: nautico-ga List Price: $2.00 |
Posted:
26 Oct 2006 12:29 PDT
Expires: 08 Nov 2006 08:08 PST Question ID: 777185 |
The following quiz question is posed in the October issue of AskOxford, a service of Oxford University Press: "Which writer, in an interview this month at the Cheltenham Festival of Literature, said that they [sic] consulted a dictionary 'about 20 times a day' and made frequent use of a thesaurus?" While I realize that "they" refers back to the singular "writer," is this not incorrect pursuant to current prescriptive English usage? I say prescriptive, because notwithstanding the fact that this number agreement gaffe is now rife in command parlance, I would bet that it not yet gained approval by authors of English language textbooks. Can any school teachers among you confirm this? | |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: pinkfreud-ga on 26 Oct 2006 12:35 PDT |
I'm not a school teacher (unless Sunday school counts), but I cringe when I see "they" used in such a manner. This kind of thing is marginally OK in colloquial speech, but in written English it grates on my sensibilities somethin' awful. |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: pinkfreud-ga on 26 Oct 2006 12:40 PDT |
Here's an interesting article about the singular 'they': http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002742.html |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: pinkfreud-ga on 26 Oct 2006 13:15 PDT |
The quiz question could have remained gender-neutral without the jarring use of "they" as a singular pronoun. Here's one way: "Which writer, in an interview this month at the Cheltenham Festival of Literature, claimed to have consulted a dictionary 'about 20 times a day' and made frequent use of a thesaurus?" |
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Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: pinkfreud-ga on 26 Oct 2006 13:16 PDT |
Let me redo that... "Which writer, in an interview this month at the Cheltenham Festival of Literature, claimed to have consulted a dictionary 'about 20 times a day' and to have made frequent use of a thesaurus?" |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: frankcorrao-ga on 26 Oct 2006 14:08 PDT |
I think singular "they" with an unknown sex is accepted syntax at this point. http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html English is full of all kinds of peculiar irrregulariities. I don't see why argue over one more. |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: denco-ga on 26 Oct 2006 14:39 PDT |
If Shakespeare used it, it works for me. "they (singular)" http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980501 "You probably can't [convince someone that using "they" in the singular is acceptable], because people who form strong opinions on such issues will rarely be convinced by evidence, no matter how extensive or persuasive. ... Objections to singular they began with the grammarians of the late eighteenth century, by which point it had been in frequent use for four hundred years. The form is extremely common today, especially in informal use, and especially as a sex-neutral pronoun, for which we have a real need in English." "The singular "they"/"their"/"them"/"themselves" construction" http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html "While your high-school English teacher may have told you not to use this construction, it [using they/their/them/themseleves] actually dates back to at least the 14th century, and was used by the following authors (among others) in addition to Jane Austen: Geoffrey Chaucer, Edmund Spenser, William Shakespeare, the King James Bible, The Spectator, Jonathan Swift, Daniel Defoe, Frances Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, Henry Fielding, Maria Edgeworth, Percy Shelley, Lord Byron, William Makepeace Thackeray, Sir Walter Scott, George Eliot [Mary Anne Evans], Charles Dickens, Mrs. Gaskell, Anthony Trollope, John Ruskin, Robert Louis Stevenson, Walt Whitman, George Bernard Shaw, Lewis Carroll, Oscar Wilde, Rudyard Kipling, H. G. Wells, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Edith Wharton, W. H. Auden, Lord Dunsany, George Orwell, and C. S. Lewis." If the above is the company I must keep with my use of "they," then so be it. |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: keystroke-ga on 26 Oct 2006 16:27 PDT |
I usually have an English major's tendency to get upset about this sort of thing, but the singular "they," as some others have pointed out, is coming into more common usage and as Denco in particular pointed out, has been used by some fine writers. As long as one has fine writing and great grammar, why quibble about the small stuff? Pinkfreud did a good job rewriting the sentence to preclude the use of "they," but in the rewritten sentence sounds incomplete and as if it should be followed with an explanation, such as "... made frequent use of a thesaurus when writing his/her latest novel" or "... made frequent use of a thesaurus when coming up with new ideas." This might be due to the separation of the subject and verb, and that's why the writer of the piece might have chosen to avoid this phrasing. |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: borisshah-ga on 26 Oct 2006 19:15 PDT |
I agree with keystroke. Pinkfreud's sentence, while nicely circumventin "they" just seems not complete. I got to the end and my mind went " and...???" They is OK to use because that is the great thing about English, the fact that it is so adaptable and flexible. Personally I abhor bad grammar but it just seems appropriate in this case. |
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Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: pinkfreud-ga on 26 Oct 2006 19:21 PDT |
This may be of interest: http://tinyurl.com/ybj55n |
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Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: pinkfreud-ga on 26 Oct 2006 19:40 PDT |
Some of the references at the bottom of this Wikipedia article may be useful or confusing (or both): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: denco-ga on 26 Oct 2006 21:30 PDT |
Let us examine the options we have at hand. - The teacher went to his car. The above is now generally accepted to be sexist, and not guaranteed to be accurate in that the teacher might very well be a woman. The days of the gender neutral "he" are long gone. - The teacher went to his or her car. Yikes! Too formal, and clumsy, even for "formal" writing, no matter how "correct" it might be considered. I think most would agree this is an artificial construct because of the failure to find a gender neutral term to use in these situations. - The teacher went to their car. Accepted, used and understood for over 400 years, by all except for the "English" teachers of the United States. Far more "egregious" changes have been adopted within the English language in much less time. To the question, nautico-ga, if a survey of American English grammar textbooks was taken, the use of the "singular they" is unacceptable. I was taught English within one of the more stricter environments that one could imagine, but I got over it. |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: denco-ga on 26 Oct 2006 21:32 PDT |
That should have been "one of the more strict environments" instead. |
Subject:
Re: Grammar question: number agreement gaffe
From: nautico-ga on 31 Oct 2006 11:37 PST |
I wrote one of my old (he's now in his mid-80s) English profs (Carleton College) about this matter. His response: It's always a pleasure to hear from you, but I'm no practical help to you on matters of contemporary usage of English. I agree with Bill Safire on they their his or her, and though I don't keep up with what English teachers are doing--don't much care--my impression is that, if they are under sixty and not pursuing some precious ideological change (like Ms., s/he, she=god), they also agree with Safire, not ever having heard of the conventional declension. Declensions and congugations, etc. have all given way to mere usage, haven't they? Like modern street Italian or Transtevere (ian?) Roman dialect. But I don't really know what I'm talking about, do I? I never cared or knew much about grammar except as a social convention. It used to be embarrassing to make obvious gaffers (Between he and I) in public. Not any more. But Dizzy Dean's mangling of the language when he was broadcasting baseball games was robust and had the sound at leasts of folk speech, Bert Blyleven's total ignorance of the accusative case (as he does the color for the Twin's games) just sounds stupid and ignorant. But then he is Dutch and has a lot to overcome. I've got to go to a late lunch downtown. All of the above is weary-of-the-subject gibberish. Please don't worry about it. [Funny.] :) |
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