where ends the universe

---

Request for Question Clarification by brightshadow-ga on 29 Oct 2002 23:48 PST

Which one?

---

Request for Question Clarification by johnny_phoenix-ga on 05 Nov 2002 06:34 PST

Would you accept "clacton-on-sea in the UK"...no....you would if you'd
been there...grumble..

There are actually many theories about the end of the universe and
where it might be located. They range from the scientific to the
spiritual to the philosophical. Please understand that this answer
cannot therefore claim to be comprehensive. Instead, I will try to
render several theories and point you in the direction of more avenues
of research.

1. The End of the Universe as Space/Time. Given that Space and Time
are part of the same cosm, one can see the 'end of the universe' as an
event as opposed to a place, and therefore it becomes a question of
time. So, checking Time (in this case, Time Magazine), we actually see
the End of the Universe is forever expanding away from us, in an ever
accelerating race as the galaxies fly further apart from one another,
faster and faster. Which itself is extremely odd, as it's always been
assumed until recently that gravity was slowing the expansion of the
universe down. Instead, the opposite is true, and Dark Energy -- a
theorized force of which we know little other than how it interacts
with the physical universe -- seems to be the cause, creating almost
an antigravity effect that pushes the universe to larger and larger
sizes every second of every day. Further, we have positive curvature
in space/time, so if you go far enough traveling in a single
direction, the curve of space will eventually cause you to return to
your originating point. So, the boundaries of the universe are always
expanding, but the actual end of the universe turns out to be the
beginning at the same time.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010625/story.html contains the
article in question that's been referenced.

2. Fictional: The End of the Universe is at Milliways, a restaurant
that has been built on the shattered remnant of a planet and projected
forward to the very end of time. Diners are able to watch the splendor
of universal destruction from the comfort of their tables, while
enjoying a fine aperatif and steaks that are pleased to be eaten. This
comes from the humorous "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" by
the late Douglas Adams.

http://www.red-shift.net/miliways.htm reproduces the text explaining
Milliways.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/milliways.shtml is the
official guide entry found on the BBC's web site.

3. Philosophical: The philosophy that can truly be said to define the
end of the universe is Solipsism, defined as:
"...the philosophical view that only the self exists or can be known
to exist. In its most extreme form, solipsism holds that all perceived
objects and events are merely the products of personal consciousness
and that this consciousness alone is genuinely real. Most forms of
solipsism, however, are derived from skepticism and argue that the
only things of which genuine knowledge is possible are the mind and
its contents; hence these alone may justifiably be said to exist. A
variant of this form argues that only in the first person case is
knowledge of the mind possible. The problem of the minds of others has
received considerable discussion in contemporary Anglo American
philosophy."

(http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/solipsis.htm)

In practical terms, this means that to the Solipsist, the universe
doesn't actually exist, but is instead a construct of his own mind.
This can be extended somewhat to mean that the things you perceive
with your senses -- smell, touch, taste, see and hear -- is the extent
of the universe. So, the universe stops existing at exactly the point
where you aren't looking at it. Now, the philosophical quandry with
solipsism is whether or not other minds exist. If not, your mind is
the sum total of the universe and you have in fact answered this
question for yourself, subconsciously. If, on the other hand, other
minds do exist and I actually have answered this question, then the
paradox needs to be reconciled.

http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/s/solipsis.htm details the debate of
solipsism and multiple minds in exhaustive detail.

4. Poetry: According to Robert Frost (in "Fire and Ice"):
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To know that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
(http://www.library.utoronto.ca/utel/rp/poems/frost12.html)
However, T.S. Eliot rejoins (in "The Hollow Men") that:
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
(http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~evans/hollow.html)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0829/p25s02-stss.html explores the
astrophysical implications of these two viewpoints and what they mean
to us.
These are just a few seeds of methods to answer your question. It
doesn't touch on music (It's the End of the World as we Know It, and I
Feel Fine, for example) or Statistics (and the defintion of a
Statistical Universe which, by definition, is finite), or many others,
but I hope it starts you towards the answer to your question.
At least, I hope it's two bucks worth.

Behind you. 

webadept-ga

Which end of the universe are you most interested in?

Steven Hawking said (at the APA 100th meeting in Atlanta GA) that
there no reason that the universe could not end in a brick wall.
Physicist and astronomers theorize and think they might know, but
really they don't. The question you ask is more suited to philosophy
rather than physics or astronomy

The end of the universe is right down that road over there. Just look
for the restaurant. Watch out for the black holes in the parking lot
and the chronosynclastic infundibulum under the stairs.

where it begins

it's the end of the universe as we know it...
it's the end of the universe as we know it...
it's the end of the universe as we know it...
and I feel fine...

To consider the end of the universe one must first realise that the
universe consists of 4 dimensions; 3 space and 1 time. The universe
has no simple END in only the 3 space dimensions. As far as the
univserse is concerned space and time are totally linked.

We know the universe has at least 1 end - the Big Bang (~17Gyrs ago) -
think of all the 4 dimensions meeting at that point. Will the universe
end again - in a Big Crunch - it would seem unlikely with the current
data - it would appear that the universe is currently expanding at an
accelerated rate - maybe never to colapse again!

The edge of the observable universe is about 16 billion light years
away. Could there be more beyond that? Of course, so there's no
definitive answer to that question. (BTW, the 16 billion distance is
probably in contention. Some say 12, some say 20, some say something
all together different.)

What makes it a little more complex is that it is about 16 billion
light years away no matter where you're at. The universe is expanding
like a balloon. If you draw several dots on a balloon and blow it up,
you'll get a good visualization on the expansion of the Universe.
We're just that little dot on the ballon, and we can only see to the
horizon.

This also illustrates how space time is curved. If you draw a line
around the balloon, you'll eventually get back to the start. So as
webadept and unstable so rightly said "Behind you" and "Where it
begins".

Having said all that, here's my short answer to "where ends the
universe?"
It doesn't.

Actually, many physicists now believe that there are 11 dimensions in
the universe, though there are at least six too many for me to
comprehend...

http://www.cap.ca/pic/books/TheWorld-Duff.htm

(put this same answer in for another question, but what the hell)

there are three main theories that I can think of.

1. the universe is limited and within "SOMETHING"

2. the universe is limited but as you travel in one direction
continuously you eventually end up where you started, but there is no
defined beginning, end, centre or edge.

3. the universe is endless and unlimited. This is hard for the human
mind to comprehend as we prefer to think of everything as having a
begining, an end and an existence to be something.  Perhaps we must
ask why the universe must have an end before we ask where it is and in
what way it exists.

If there is an end, does that mean the the idea of "nothing" cannot
exist? Is every bit of what we know and understand filled with some
form of energy?

Perhaps that is the end of the universe. Where energy in any form does
not exist and will never exist, and beyond is something else. Maybe we
can say that the edge of the universe is the furthest that the
smallest possible, portion of energy can possibly travel from all
other energy.

This would appear to be killed by the fact that the universe is
expanding faster and faster, but if there is "dark matter" causing
this then you simply need to count this as well.


If energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed...

Then you could say that the universe and time will end when all energy
that it consists of reaches a state/point that it will never change
from.

This almost seems to fit in with the continuous loop theory in regards
to going faster than the speed of light.  Might even fit in the the
fact that the universe is expanding faster and faster. Everything will
speed up until it all reaches the critical point and enteres and
infinite loop, never changing.