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Q: Quantum entanglement ( Answered 3 out of 5 stars,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Quantum entanglement
Category: Science > Physics
Asked by: goondra-ga
List Price: $10.00
Posted: 29 Oct 2002 16:06 PST
Expires: 28 Nov 2002 16:06 PST
Question ID: 92556
Will quantum entanglement ultimately be shown to be an artifact of
detector efficiency?

Request for Question Clarification by hedgie-ga on 02 Nov 2002 07:01 PST
Hello goondra

             comment by rbnn answred the question correctly, that is NO.
 Frankly, it is not clear to me why s/he did not posted that as an answer.

 Anyway,

  It is artifact of measurement but consequence of the current QM
  theory.  

  Does it answer your question or do you need more references - and
 explanations. If so, on what level?

Request for Question Clarification by hedgie-ga on 02 Nov 2002 07:02 PST
Correcting a typo:

It is NOT an artefact of measuremnet.

sory

Clarification of Question by goondra-ga on 02 Nov 2002 08:40 PST
My question was actually retorical, simply to see how Google Answers
works.

Of course "according to quantum mechanics" entanglement is a
fundamental property.
The issue is whether the current formulation of quantum mechanics is
complete.
It is rather interesting that by simply allowing a few (18%) losses,
all of the
predictions of quantum mechanics can be reproduced exactly by local
realistic
systems and hence no non-locality is needed.  All optical experiments
to date
have losses far greater than this.  The recent experiement with atoms
in a cavity has high efficient, however, it does not exhibit
space-like separation which is necessary to truly demonstrate
entanglement and nonlocality.

Water waves can be "coherent" in that widely separated regions can be
in "phase"
and it is this aspect that is most likely a component of quantum
systems.
It remains to be seen whether such coherent quantum fields are truly
"entangled".

Request for Question Clarification by hedgie-ga on 05 Nov 2002 10:55 PST
Thank you goondra for the clarification. 

It indeed did reveled quite a bit more about your interest and level
of knowldege. Both are important when answering a question.

 But, usually, people do not put $30 on rhetorical questions :-)
 Do you intend to reject any answer when your probe into GA capabilies
is
 finished?

If it was just an experiment (to see how stupid answer you will get),
we can consider it complete and leave  the test question  formaly
unanswered.

 Obviously, you will not get THE ANSWER to THE QM question 
 on google and for $30.

However, GA researchers can provide references to posted articles
which discuss
this complex issue. 
 Articles like those collected at:
http://dmoz.org/Society/Philosophy/Philosophy_of_Science/Philosophy_of_Physics/Quantum_Reality_and_Locality/

Is any of that part of an answer  to your question?

 hedgie

Hedgie

Clarification of Question by goondra-ga on 05 Nov 2002 12:34 PST
"Do you intend to reject any answer when your probe into GA capabilies
is finished? 
 
If it was just an experiment (to see how stupid answer you will get), 
we can consider it complete and leave  the test question  formaly
unanswered.
 
 Obviously, you will not get THE ANSWER to THE QM question  
 on google and for $30. "

I will pay the $10 (its not $30).  I have had enough feedback already.
Sorry to take up your time.  Now, how does one accept an unanswered 
question?

-Doug

Request for Question Clarification by hedgie-ga on 05 Nov 2002 21:08 PST
Re:
   Sorry to take up your time.  Now, how does one accept an unanswered  
      question? 

 No problem at all. It was an interesting experiment, with result:

 Since no ga researcher knows the answer, or is able to find it at this time,
 there is no charge.

 hedgie
Answer  
Subject: Re: Quantum entanglement
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 06 Nov 2002 23:31 PST
Rated:3 out of 5 stars
 
Hello again, goondra

  Thank you for your clarifications, which helped me to determine the
proper
  level for a reply, and also revealed that the question behind your
question
  was "How does google work?".

  After further websearching, soulsearching, and interaction with the
  google editors I have decided that I shouldn try to do better than I
  did so far.
 In return, I would ask you to please take the time to rate the
answer.
  Your rating is important to help resolve some doubts about
  whether your question recieved a proper handling.

 First, I quote the editors:

"Hello Hedgie,
Upon reading your clarification, we felt that your tone and approach
to
the customer was unsatisfactory. We would like to see significant
improvement in your customer service skills and your proofreading...."


This part of the answer was regarding the "How google works"
 part of your question.

Now the physics part:

    The first association which comes to mind, in reference to your
question,
 is the Nick Herbert's FLASH device. According to the story, Nick
actualy
got a grant to build the thing, and decided to stop when he was not
able
to buy  suffciently efficient detectors. Description of FLASH is here:
6."FLASH--A Superluminal Communicator Based upon a New Type of Quantum
Measurement" Foundations of Physics Vol 12, 1171 (1982)  - an item 6
in this bibliography:
http://members.cruzio.com/~quanta/biblio.html


 Nick can verify the story regarding the efficiency of detectors as
a limit to actually obtaining some of the non-local effects predicted
by contemorary theory. Here is his home page with e-mail.
http://members.cruzio.com/~quanta/nick.html

New tests of quantum non-locality were proposed
http://www.lkb.ens.fr/recherche/qedcav/french/rydberg/perspectives/belltest.html

However, Spontaneous Emission and Self-Amplified Spontaneous Emission
 may impose a fundamental limit on the efficiency of quantum
detectors.
 This may  forever prevent obtaining the  experimental evidence
needed  to resolve the conflict between classical and quantum physics
as described here:
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v409/n6822/full/409774a0_r.html


 Attempts to close the detection or "efficiency" loophole,
are a topic of current research:
www.iisc.ernet.in/pramana/fm2001/QT2.pdf

 According to PHILIPPE GRANGIER in Nature 409, 774 - 775 (2001)
(quoted above)
 ..despite several proposals 3, 4, no conclusive experiment has been
done..


 It is possible that we have a situation last encountered some 100
years ago,
 when the
 ether wind was being measured, always in vain.   More and more clever
devices
 were built, no effect was never found...
 Drawing an historical lesson here, we see that the answer was arrived
at by
 deduction. Experimental difficulty pointed to a problem, but problem
 was solved by the deduction.

The concensus is that "the final definitive answer to the question of
locality,
the Bell inequalities, and the EPR paradox has not yet been obtained"
http://faculty.physics.tamu.edu/thw/projects/eprmain.html

 Therefore, the only way to answer your question now is to rely on the
 power of deduction.
 On that basis, I would answer your question with YES: Current theory,
including the
 Bell Theorem derivation, lacks the logical foundation consistent with
the theory of
 Relativity. Attempts to overthrow the Bell Theorem have been made,
but none has been
 sufficiently convincing so far. This is the "hidden assumption"
interpretation
 of QM - analogous to the old "hidden assumption" that Simultaneity is
an
 invariant property, which was inherent in pre-relativistic
derivations of the
 ether wind :-)


 So, in conclusion:
    Acording to the current interpretation og the QM theory, the
answer is NO.
    Ultimately, however, the current interptretation will be replaced
by a
    local realistic theory which will answer this questions with YES.

 Of course, the experiment may soon show that this answer is wrong.
 The new 'ether wind' may be soon detected.

 Please read the google diclaimer
https://answers.google.com/answers/termsofservice.html
 which states, among  other fine points, the following
Google Answers are general information, and are not intended to
substitute
for informed ... professional advice :-)

 Search Terms:
 Nick Herbert, FLASH
 detection loophole
 EPR
 Bell Theorem
 QI interpretaations
 Spontaneous Emission
 Detect Efiiciency

                    I hope this modest attempt to answer a difficult
question
 was helpful. Further clarifications is available on request, at no
charge.
 If no clarification is needed, kindly consider providing a rating.


   hedgie
goondra-ga rated this answer:3 out of 5 stars
Good answer, not supurb, but good.  You covered the bases. The
preprint server xxx.lanl.gov quant-phys shows the exponential increase
in interest in practical applications of entanglement via quantum
computing and quantum communications.  I don't think we understand yet
what is going on. Abstract Hilbert space just does not subsitute for
solid principles and good experimental design.  Thank you all for your
comments and answer(s).

Comments  
Subject: Re: Quantum entanglement
From: rbnn-ga on 29 Oct 2002 16:52 PST
 
According to quantum theory, no, entanglement is a fundamental
property that is no more dependent on detector efficiency than is the
Heisenberg uncertainty principle. However, entanglement is still
fairly new, and who is to say whether or not it will be overturned
eventually?

An excellent discussion of entanglement is in the book Quantum
Computation by Nielsen et al (I was just reading it in fact when your
question came in)
Subject: Re: Quantum entanglement
From: rbnn-ga on 06 Nov 2002 21:03 PST
 
By the way, I just happened to be looking through last week's Nature,
(Oct 24 I think was the most recent in the library) and there was an
article on synthesis of a quantum NOT.

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