I get the feeling that the modern english version of the text (e.g.
Deuteronomy 5, the King James Bible version) may not be perfectly true to the
original (as brought down from Mt. Sinai by the prophet that looked
like Charlton Heston)

Can anyone tell me from a translation of the original Hebrew or
similarly reliable text, exactly what was said and meant?

---

Request for Question Clarification by justaskscott-ga on 18 Dec 2002 23:28 PST

Hi spurious-ga,

I am interested in answering your question, but I believe 
that to answer it well, your question will require more time 
and effort than the average amount of time and effort associated 
with this price.  Here is a link to guidelines about pricing 
your question, https://answers.google.com/answers/pricing.html

If you both raise your price and also post a clarification here, 
the system will notify me and I will take another look at your 
question.

---

Clarification of Question by spurious-ga on 19 Dec 2002 01:00 PST

Thanks for responding so quickly, justaskscott-ga.

Although I consistently tip for good answers, the questions I post are
generally pretty simple and quick to answer, or anyhow less important
questions that I’d not expect to pay much for. So far, I haven’t
offered a question at more than the basic rate and I’ve always
received a response within a day or two.

Actually, you’re the first Researcher who’s asked me to re-price my
question! That said, your request is not unreasonable, if more work is
required.

I turned to the pricing guide to see if I was way, way out of line.
The guide says this about $2 -$5 questions:

“Can be answered with a single link or a single piece of information.
Sometimes, if a researcher is personally interested in the question's
subject, they may provide a longer answer.”
“Not appropriate for multipart questions.”
“Only 60% of the questions asked in this price range are answered”

OK, so I checked to see if it could be done reasonably within the
guidelines….

Google search: ["ten commandments" original hebrew translation]
brought up a number of solid leads (actually 6,980).  Out of the first
five hits, these three basically say it all.

(#1) Even Google's "I'm feeling lucky" button would have found this
one... Ancient Hebrew Research Centre has ancient, middle and modern
Hebrew texts for the Ten Commandments here:
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/17_10com.html

(#2) Bible Translations has a vast array of resources here:
http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/

(#5) Pentacostals Online has probably the closest thing to an answer
that I could expect for $2:
http://www.pentecostalsonline.org/commandment.html

So, yes, it could be answered in a few minutes with a simple search
and a single link.

But just as I wouldn’t cut you out if a Comment answered my question,
it’s also unfair to deny you your fee because I answered it myself.

Feel free to repost my final link as an Answer and I’ll post the *****
rating, justaskscott-ga.

Regards,

Spurious-ga

Dear spurious, 

Disregarding the pricing discussion, I am fascinated by religion, and
therefore would answer your question.

First of all, and before I get to the Hebrew part, there is no hard
evidence that Moses looked a tiny bit like Charlton Heston. Actually,
judging by the looks of people originating from Egypt, Israel or
northern Syria (which is where Abraham originated from), I'd have to
conclude that he didn't look a bit like Mr Heston, maybe closer to the
looks of Rabbi Yosef of Israel
http://www.mishkat.com/images/ovadia.jpg , who originates from Iraq
(See an interesting discussion on the subject in African American
religious writings, including some radical anti-Semite ones, claiming
that the "White Jews" have stolen the identity, and the Blacks are the
"real Hebrews". Naturally, there is no such thing as a colour for a
Jew - this is a Jew from the Rat Pack,
http://www.uaudio.com/images/scrapbook/sammy.jpg , this is a Jew from
Van Helen http://www.mtv.com/news/images/archive/Roth,_David_Lee/sq-david-lee-roth-ooh-press-atl.jpg
).

Anyway, to your question. As mentioned before, there are many
discussions on the right translation to the Bible, including some
funny anecdotes. Do you know why the sculpture "Moses"
(http://nmaa-ryder.si.edu/collections/exhibits/lewis/moses.jpg) has
horns? In the Bible, it says (in Hebrew) that Moses' face "Karnu",
which means in Hebrew "shone" (in plural, since face is plural in
Hebrew. However, "Keren" means in Hebrew "horn". So, as a user named
Flexible writes in a theology newsgroup: "for example, the hebrew word
for shone [plural] is "karnu", which is of the same root of "keren"
(horn), thus when they saw "pney mosheh karnu" (the face of moses
shone), the translated it to "the face of moses was horned", meaning
with horn, and when michelangelo or da vinci (Michelangelo,
Politicalguru) made the famous statue of moses, he placed a horn on
his head. funny aint it? and when anti-semitism was on the rise in
europe, it became a symbol of the "hideous jew", having a horn on his
head." (Source: Flexible, "Well..." a message dated Thu Oct 17,
http://www.neozones.com/Sections/RELG/board/Messages/7119.shtml).

The Ten Commandments are no difference. 

First of all, because they were transferred orally, or in other means
that did not last to out times, and changes could easily occur.
Second, because they were translated from Greek, not from Hebrew. The
oldest copy of the Ten Commandments is dated at 100 BCE (Before Common
Era, aka BC) and available to view in Cambridge University and is
called "Nash Papyrus", after the Englishmen who bought it in Egypt.
(See http://www.xs4all.nl/~knops/timetab.html)

Third, there is a difference between different Churches in
Christianity and between them and Judaism. The Anti-Defamation League
writes in its site, that "The ancient Hebrew text followed by Jews is
very different from the language found in the King James Bible version
accepted by most Protestant churches in America today." (Source: ADL,
"The Ten Commandments Controversy:
A First Amendment Perspective"
http://www.adl.org/10comm/Damage_to.asp).

The Catholic Encyclopedia (a very useful project and source indeed),
tells us, that there are differences between the Catholic version to
that of the Protestants :

"The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles is based on the
Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of
"Questions of Exodus" ("Quזstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII", Bk. II,
Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is
followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of
Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false
worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a
single class of sins to be guarded against--the reference to idols
being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God
and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of
idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction
forbidding the use of the Lord's Name in vain comes second in order;
and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the
final precept on concupiscence--the Ninth pointing to sins of the
flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods.
Another division has been adopted by the English and Helvetian
Protestant churches on the authority of Philo Judזus, Josephus Origen,
and others, whereby two Commandments are made to cover the matter of
worship, and thus the numbering of the rest is advanced one higher;
and the Tenth embraces both the Ninth and Tenth of the Catholic
division. It seems, however, as logical to separate at the end as to
group at the beginning, for while one single object is aimed at under
worship, two specifically different sins are forbidden under
covetousness; if adultery and theft belong to two distinct species of
moral wrong, the same must be said of the desire to commit these
evils." (Source: The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, "Commandments
of God" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04153a.htm).

It might be interesting to mention, that the famous "Decalogue" series
by Krzysztof Kieslowski is (of course) based on the Catholic version
of the Commandments.

The differences are analysed thoroughly in the Catholic World New
website: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/ten_commandments.htm , and
you could find there the comparison between the Catholic and the
Protestant version.

A have also read the original, Jewish, version (in Hebrew).You could
also read them (with an English annotation) at:
http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html.

The commandments are, again, different. The differences are summarised
here, the translations are based on the
http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html site mentioned before:

1. Catholic: "I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods
before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image." ;
Protestant: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ; Jewish: ""I am
the LORD your God".

2. Catholic: "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in
vain." ; Protestant: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
in vain." ; Jewish: Thou shalt have no other gods before me

3. Catholic: Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day. ; Protestant: Thou
shalt not make unto thee any graven image. ; Jewish: "Thou shalt not
take the name of the LORD your God in vain"

4. Catholic: "Honor your father and mother." ; Protestant: "Remember
the sabbath day to keep it holy." ; Jewish: Remember the Sabbath day,
to keep it holy

5. Catholic: "You shall not kill." ; Portestant: "Honor thy father and
thy mother." ; Jewish: "Honor thy father and thy mother"

6. Catholic: "You shall not commit adultery." ; Protestant: "Thou
shalt not kill." ; Jewish: "Thou Shalt Not Kill".

7. Catholic: You shall not steal ; Protestant: "Thou shalt not commit
adultery." ; Jewish: "Thou shalt not commit adultery"

8. Catholic: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
; Protestant: "Thou shalt not steal" ; Jewish: Thou shalt not steal

9. Catholic: You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. ; Portestant:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. ; Jewish:
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor"

10. Catholic: You shall not covet your neighbor's goods ; Protestant:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. Thou shalt not covet thy
neighbors goods ; Jewish: Thou shalt not covet.

That's the differences. As mentioned before, I base my testimony upon
The Levitte site, which also has, in smaller print, the exact
translation from Hebrew.

My searches, which were not aimed at enrichment, were based on the
term "ten commandments", with terms such as "hebrew text" (or
wordings).

I hope that answered your question. If you need any clarification,
please let me know. I'd be pleased to clarify my answer before you
rate it.

---

Clarification of Answer by politicalguru-ga on 19 Dec 2002 09:53 PST

I would like to thank "Just Ask Scott"-ga, and the other commentators,
on their insights. I was not aware that Levitte is a missionary,
biased, site.

As a compensation, I looked up for definately Jewish sites, such as
Bar Ilan (Yeshiva) University of Israel. They write, in an article on
the Ten Commandments, the Hebrew original as found on two Samaritan
boards (after the Ten Commandments there are two Samaritan writings):

"(השלמה בראש הלוח) 1  אנכי ה' אלקיך אשר הוצאתיך 

2  מארץ מצרים מבית עבדים

(1) I am the Lord your God who took you out of Egypt, the House of the
slaves

1  לא יהיה לך אלקים

2  אחרים על פני

(2) There would be no other Gods but me

3  לא תשא את שם ה'

4  אלקיך לשוא

(3) Do not take the name of God in vain

5  שמור את יום השבת

6  לקדש(ה)ו כבד את אביך

(4) Keep the sacred Sabbath 
(5) Respect thy father and mother

7  ואת אמך. לא תרצח.

(6) Shalt not kill

8  לא תנאף. לא תגנב.

(7) Thou shalt not commit adultery
 
(8)Thou shalt not steal

9  לא תענה ברעך עד שקר.

(9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor

10 לא תחמוד בית רעך. 

(10) Sahlt not covet. "

A very thorough and accurate Answer that far exceeded the quality of
response needed or deserved for the money offered.

spurious,

First of all, I took a look at your other questions, and they are
certainly of a much less complex nature than this one. Definitive
Answers DO exist for those questions, and they can be found with a
small amount of searching. I do not believe that a "Definitive" Answer
exists for this question.

It is my opinion that ANY translation of the original text of the
Commandments will NEVER be "perfectly true to the original", for
numerous reasons, including the following:

1) All translations are done by human beings, who are not infallible
and will make mistakes;

2) No matter how honorable their intent, a translator -- by nature of
being human -- will still impart some of their own personal beliefs
into the translation;

3) Because the text to be translated was written centuries ago, in
order to be accurate, any translation by necessity must take into
account the general belief systems and overall culture of the person
writing the text in that time; however, while a translator can study
everything that has been "discovered" or surmised about the culture at
that time, because it was so long ago, it is highly unlikely that
modern understanding of that time is completely accurate;

4) Given the assumption that Moses did indeed receive tablets
containing the Commandments from a supreme being, they were locked
away in the Ark of the Covenant, and any "original" texts of the
Commandments are in fact not "originals" but a rewriting of the text
on the tablets, and (as those were also done by humans) may or may not
be true to the original text on the tablets.

This is indeed a complex subject, and it requires a great deal of
research to ensure that the Answer is as accurate as possible.
justaskscott's comment was perfectly appropriate; I would have posted
the same thing that he did. If the references you found satisfy you,
that's great! However, I would have never have posted that information
as an Answer, because I would not feel that grabbing the first things
that come up on a Search Engine (for which the ranking algorithm was
also designed by flawed and subjective human beings) necessarily
constitutes the Best Answer. Are these the best, most accurate sources
for other translations? It would not be possible to know that without
a great deal more research and analysis.

Regards,

aceresearcher

This question is in fact very complex because all translations are by
nature interpretations, at least in some measure. Translating the "Ten
Commandments", or any portions from their original biblical Hebrew,
involves perhaps the most careful interpretative process than any
other language text.

Even the Hebrew itself is not learned properly without traditional and
religious sources that elucidate, clarify, and refine the
understanding. Translations have been presented, but their inevitable
flaws or deficiencies can lead to misunderstandings. The phrase
itself, "Ten Commandments", is inaccurate. They are not called
commandments at all in the text. Some say the word in context, loosely
transliterated as "dibroth", means utterances, but it carries more
meaning than that too.  A further brief example is that what is often
thought to say "Do not steal" is explained by some commentaries as "Do
not steal people, i.e. do not kidnap or take a hostage", which does
make sense as including it in the company of a statement such as "Do
not murder". A commandment not to steal objects is found elsewhere in
the bible.
The real language is imbued with meaning, and no translation will be
adequate.

I, or another researcher, could venture a translation, or even refer
you to further sources, but it is by no means trivial.

Normally, I would not comment here, since I think that it is up to
spurious-ga to decide whether the answer is satisfactory.  However, I
think that anyone reading this answer should note that the source of
the translations is a group specifically designed to proselytize Jews.

"What We Believe and Do"
Zola Levitt Ministries
http://www.levitt.com/watiszlm.html

Personally, I tend to think that a group whose mission is to convert
Jews to Christianity will necessarily put a certain slant on the
wording of its text, and cannot be considered objective and
authoritative.  Others may disagree.

This is a complicated question, as previous commentators have said.

A lot of people seem to think that the conversations and commandments
mentioned in the Bible took place in 17th-century English, because of
the popularity of the KJV translation among English-speaking
Christians. Of course, the Hebrew Bible really was written in Biblical
Hebrew (with parts in Aramaic).

The "original" Hebrew of the Sixth (or Fifth) Commandment is "Lo
tirtsach." "Lo" means "no" or "do not." The closest word in Modern
English for the Hebrew "tirtsach" appears to be "murder." The
17th-century word "kill" is equivalent to the modern word "murder,"
while the 17th-century word "slay" is analagous to the modern "kill."
The best translation of the commandment, therefore, appears to be "Do
not commit murder." This is what the ORT translation (bible.ort.org)
uses. However, "murder" may not be a perfect translation of "tirtsach"
either (see http://shamash.org/listarchives/mail-jewish/volume14/v14n36).

"Thou" in Middle English was the form of "you" used for family members
and friends. It was analagous to the Spanish "tת."

Don't forget that the Torah itself contains two slightly different
versions of the 10 Statements -- one in Exodus 20 and one in
Deuteronomy 5. There are several differences between the two versions.

One of the differences is in the verb for the Shabbat: Ex. 20:8 says
"Zakhor" (Remember) it, and Deut. 5:12 says "Shamor" (Guard) it. The
Talmud interprets the first to mean the positive observances (what to
do), and the second to mean the negatives (what not to do). Jewish
tradition also says that God proclaimed both words at the same time --
a one-time only feat!

Another difference is that Ex. 20:11 says the Shabbat is because God
made the world in six days and rested on the seventh. Deut. 5:15 says
the Shabbat is because we were slaves in Egypt and God freed us.
Interestingly, the Friday night Kiddush (the traditional Jewish prayer
on wine to sanctify the Shabbat), cites both reasons.

Now you know!

I took longer than usual to reply to your Answer and Comments, as each
is worthy of deeper consideration.

justaskscott-ga,
The consensus seems to be that my question was, at least misworded.
Worse, it looked like a detailed considered response was asked for.
Sorry; I didn’t mean to say that you expected too much; just that I
expected less of an answer. A two-dollar question deserves a
two-dollar answer, no more. With luck, Researchers answering my future
questions will see this thread and understand my pricing strategy and
expectations.

Thank you also for your comment. There is only one authority qualified
to interpret the Ten Commandments and He’s probably shaking his head
at us all right now.

politicalguru-ga,
Thanks again for answering another of my cheap-*ssed questions in such
thorough detail. Thanks also for the humor and anecdotes; you seem to
know me pretty well! Your Answer and Clarification were spot on and
went into detail way beyond my expectations.

Your analysis of the cross-religion and cross-denomination issues is
IMO fundamental to the problem and the original motivation for my
question. I figured there is really no more fundamental and commonly
understood guideline than the Ten Commandments and this should have
been researched to death and plastered all over the ‘Net.
Alternatively, I figured a Researcher that could read Hebrew could
just pull out a copy of the Torah and give me a quick translation of
the verses. You’ve done all that and more.

I’ll post a snappier Rating text in the appropriate place.

aceresearcher-ga,
I agree that the question is potentially a $200 question. I also agree
that it takes a lot more than a basic search or two to answer
properly, but that’s more or less what I’d have expected for two
bucks. What I feel a Google Answer adds over a search engine is an
element of intellect and interpretation. I propose an ideal Question
Clarification could explain briefly why more money is needed, how much
is needed and what the Researcher is prepared to deliver for that
price.

I also agree that almost all religious texts are subjective or even
only illustrative and highly contextual. In some cases that may have
been intentional, to future-proof or just to add some leeway. I am
sure this wasn’t the intention from in the Ten Commandments, but this
thread seems to have illustrated many subjectivities.

vitalmed-ga,
Alas, in religion as opposed to secular law, interpretations cannot
carry the weight and authority of the original text (especially man’s
interpretation of God’s word), although I agree that religious
teachers’ guidance may be helpful. History is full of examples of the
abuse of such authority. That’s why I sought a version stripped of
interpretation. I believe God gave us the ability to think for
ourselves, rather than blindly accept the doctrine of our forebears.

mwalcoff-ga,
There is a natural tendency for people to gravitate towards older
languages and styles, simply because they appear less approachable and
hence more “Holy”; even if they are known to be flawed. For years, I
preferred the KGV, too. It is the version my parents were exposed to
and therefore myself too. I hope, before too long, to be a parent and
I am re-examining my own beliefs and they way I plan to teach them to
my children.

ravuri-ga,
Man’s record of God’s word is filled with contradictions and funky
explanations. I’d rather work out what He meant than guess why the
writer thought He said it. Thanks for your insight and knowledge.

------ Censor: Cut here ------

My thoughts on pricing and the market:

No matter how well the market is administered, I believe that price is
the least factor that determines uptake in a publicly viewable
information marketplace. Interesting subject matter, peer recognition
and professional job satisfaction and even charity are often the
primary motivating factors.

How else could you explain an arms-length transaction like this (a
$10+ product for a $3 offer) or the avalanche of helpful information
provided for free that followed it?

------ Censor: Cut here ------

Finally, I wish you all a Happy Hanukkah and a Merry Christmas!

Spurious-ga

spurious,

While I would sometimes like to be more specific with pricing
suggestions, Researchers really are not permitted to suggest or
negotiate prices with Customers (although some have done so, it's
considered in extremely poor form, and may have serious repercussions
for the Researcher). The most that we have been given permission to do
is to post a statement much like the one I posted above.

Regards,

aceresearcher

It is important to realize as mentioned before that these are 10
statements not 10 comandments. In addition there is no "jewish"
breakdown of the commandments. In general you won't find jews agreeing
on much. The mideval commentators and Rabbis had a few diffrent
breakups of the commandments some presented here and others not.  Some
Rabbis break the commandments down into 10 statements and then extract
from those statements up to 15 laws(Rabbam I think).  However when you
walk into a synogauge you will see the now accepted Jewish 10
commandments.
  What everyone here ignored is that all we wanted really was a
tranislation. We should be able to break down and figure out the
meaning of the transilated words. In addition I should mention that
there are paragraph breaks in the Torah scroll but for some reason in
this case not a single opinion follows those breaks