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Q: islam and current events: 1 of 5 ( Answered,   1 Comment )
Subject: islam and current events: 1 of 5
Category: Relationships and Society > Religion
Asked by: yakker-ga
List Price: $7.00
Posted: 30 Mar 2003 15:18 PST
Expires: 29 Apr 2003 16:18 PDT
Question ID: 183355
please present evidence to refute the following statement.  if there
is no evidence to refute the statement, please address the statement's

(1) islam teaches to "kill the infidel"

Clarification of Question by yakker-ga on 30 Mar 2003 17:50 PST
thanks for the comment, scott.  i should have made that comment myself.

Request for Question Clarification by digsalot-ga on 30 Mar 2003 19:08 PST
There is an answer to part 1, the fifth comment down, on your original
question.  It may or it may not be what you want.

However, I will leave this question open in case somebody has some
different ideas.  I did say multiple minds are better than one.  This
way you might get two completely different takes on the same subject.

Good Luck


Request for Question Clarification by justaskscott-ga on 30 Mar 2003 19:26 PST
I would be happy to answer this question if digsalot does not wish to;
I did some fruitful research before realizing that digsalot had put in
so much effort before.  However, I still sense that it is your
intention to award digsalot the answer.  But just to make it clear --
should digsalot answer the question; should whoever wants to answer it
do so; or should the question remain open for comments for a while?

Clarification of Question by yakker-ga on 31 Mar 2003 11:59 PST
yes, digsalot should claim this question for his previous work.  if
you wish to add a comment, feel free to.

Request for Question Clarification by digsalot-ga on 31 Mar 2003 18:21 PST
Thank you again. - As I stated when you invited me to go ahead and
post my answer to #1 on your original question and again here," I will
leave it open."  The information I was providing was in "comments"
after I withdrew my initial answer so you would not be charged for
what you didn't want.  When you took me to task about the manner I was
writing material for which you would not be charged, and stated I was
providing too much information, I have withdrawn from the question

Anybody who wants is free to take what I have posted as an answer for
#1, put it here and claim the money.  I would now be very
uncomfortable doing so.


Request for Question Clarification by justaskscott-ga on 31 Mar 2003 19:33 PST
Since digsalot has declined the offer to answer your question, is the
question now open to other Researchers?
Subject: Re: islam and current events: 1 of 5
Answered By: digsalot-ga on 31 Mar 2003 19:54 PST
Well, having figuratively bashed about the head and shoulders by my
fellow researchers for being ungracious by turning down your offer, I
hereby humbly submit it along with an apology.

And since at least one of the researchers who so bashed (although with
affection) is Southern, I can't let the world believe that
graciousness is the exclusive property of the South - - I'm in Ohio.

Since this will be cut and paste from the other question, I hope it
does not break up.

Well, since I haven't seen anybody jump one way or the other here, I
will go ahead and address claim number 1.  I am also going to post
this as a comment so that there will be no charge made against your
I still feel these points have to be addressed and, if need be, I will
answer all of them one at a time as comments and over a period of
several days.  There is still almost a month to go before the question
is expired.  So, if nobody else takes the plunge, we cannot post
partial answers and come back later to finish them.  Eventually you
will have the whole answer and you will have it as my guest because it
will come in one step at a time.
However, if somebody else does decide to answer since this is an
unlocked question, they may freely include these posts as part of
their own answer in order that they will not have to repeat what has
already been done, and will still be able to post a complete answer on
their own as required.
1 - Islam teaches to "kill the infidel 
You have already given two examples of the Koranic scriptures in use
to attempt to establish this belief as fact by those who would foment
hate in the name of faith.  I will not only repeat them here but will
give you many, many more.  Then we will refute them and demonstrate
why they prove nothing.
ix:111 "Surely Allah has bought of the believers and their property
for this, that they shall have the garden [i.e. heaven]; they fight in
Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on
Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more
faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge
which you have made; and that is a mighty achievement."
ii:191 "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight with you, then slay them, such is the
recompense of unbelievers."
ix.5-6: "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find
iv.76: "Those who believe fight in the cause of God..." 
viii.12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,
strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every
viii.39-42: "Say to the Infidels: If they desist from their unbelief,
what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it,
they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then
against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it
ii.256: "But they who believe, and who fly their country, and fight in
the cause of God may hope for God's mercy: and God is Gracious,
viii. 15, 16: "Believers, when you meet the unbelievers preparing for
battle do not turn your backs to them. [ Anyone who does ] shall incur
the wrath of God and hell shall be his home: an evil dwelling indeed
ix.39: "If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put
others in your place."
ix.29,30: "Declare war upon those to whom the Scriptures were revealed
but believe neither in God nor the Last Day ,and who do not forbid
that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who refuse to
acknowledge the true religion [Islam] until they pay the poll-tax
without reservation and are totally subjugated.
That should be enough for us to start with.  As you can see, most any
of those standing alone may be used to back the statement that the
followers of Islam are commanded to "kill the infidel."  It is a very
impressive aray of material for those who wish to push such a concept.
Some or all of these Koranic verses are being used by some angry
anti-Islamic speakers and clergy who point to them and say: "See, the
God of the Koran commands all Moslems to kill non-Moslems."
In a multi-cultural society such as ours, this is a very dangerous
thing indeed.  When somebody tells us that our friend and neighbor,
who has always been friendly, helpful and kind, is secretly obligated
to kill us, many of us will begin to treat that friend and neighbor as
an enemy.  The accusation that the Koran teaches absolute jihad
against all non-Moslems is the kind of charge that helped convince
Christians in Bosnia to turn on lifelong friends and neighbors and put
them in concentration camps.
To add to the fire, here are a few more Koranic verses: 
Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them 2:191 
Fight and slay the pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait
for them in every stratagem. 9:5
Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that
they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have
a great punishment in the world hereafter. 5:34
And the Lord our god delivered him before us...and we took all his
cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men and the women and
the little ones, of every city we left none to remain.
Of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God give thee for an
inheritance, thou shall save alive nothing that breatheth.
Actually, I just lied to you, and in front of the whole world.  The
last two verses are from the Bible. - Deuteronomy 2:33-4 and 20:16
I will be relating to them soon.  There is a reason I put them here. 
If you look at other verses in the Koran, you will find a contrasting
message. - "Even if you stretch out your hand against me to kill me, I
shall not stretch out my hand against you to kill you." - also - "If
anyone murders an innocent person, it will be as if he has murdered
the whole of humanity."
You will also find that if the verses from the Koran I used above to
demonstrate that the Koran teaches the followers of Islam to "kill
infidels" are placed within their context rather than standing alone,
they relate to defensive actions rather than aggressive ones.  One of
the ones you used as an example, ii:191 contains the words "and drive
them out from whence they drove you out."  The very nature of that
phrase itself makes it clear that the verse is related to defensive
action to take 'after' one has already been attacked.  How so many
anti-Islamic people hearing those words, and how so many anti-Islamic
clergy who are spouting them, cannot realize what it is they have just
heard or have just spoken is far beyond my feeble brain to comprehend.
To illustrate the point, let's actually put ii:191 in context with
what comes right before and after:
ii:190 "Fight in the way of God those who wage war on you, and do not
commit aggression.  God does not like aggressors
ii:191 "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight with you, then slay them, such is the
recompense of unbelievers.
ii:192 "Accomplish the Pilgrimage and visitation of the holy places in
honor of God, and if you are hemmed in by foes, send whatever offering
shall be the easiest, and shave not your heads until the offering
reach the place of sacrifice.  but whoever among you is sick, or has
an ailment of the head, must expiate by fasting, or alms, or an
ii:193 "But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except
against wrongdoers.  And one who attacks you, attack him in like
manner as he attacked you.  Observe your duty to God, and know God is
with those who ward off evil."
Now, even though ii:191 is used by anti-Islamic clergy as one of the
absolute proofs of Islam's command to "kill infidels," you can see
that when it is placed in context it is no more than "defensive"
instruction.  The "kill them wherever you find them" relates back to
the aggressors of ii:190. -   ii:192 gives instruction on how to
handle religious duties while "hemmed in by foes." - And ii193
instructs Moslems to lay down their arms if those who are attacking do
so. "But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against
Here is another example of how Koranic scripture is twisted to
establish a claim that Moslems are commanded to "kill infidels."
viii.12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,
strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every
Quoting that passage as a stand alone Koranic verse, as those who are
demonizing Islam do, is the same as saying Patrick Henry said "Give me
death."  Of course we know that the real quote was "Give me liberty or
give me death," but when taken out of context it sounds ludicrous.
To explain how this Koranic passage is taken out of context, we do not
refer back to other text as much as we need to know the history of the
events it refers to and how it relates to the Koranic teaching itself.
 I would venture to guess that very few of the anti-Islamic agitators
have bothered to find out.
First of all, look at the way it is written.  Koranic passages such as
the ones dealing with defensive actions we already covered above read
as instructions.  However, you will notice this one does not.  It is a
first person narrative.  "I will instill terror..."  The passage
begins with "I."  In this passage, it is God speaking about what "He"
is going to do.  It is not speaking about what Moslems are supposed to
Mohammed and his followers were attacked by surrounding tribes of
Pagans, not Christians or Jews.  Incidently, this particular tribe of
pagans practiced human sacrifice by burying selected daughters alive.
Archaeological research has found much evidence of these people and
their practices.  Such practices enraged Mohammed, but that is beside
the point here.  In the verse cited,  God is explaining how he plans
to help the Moslems to victory.
Now this chapter in the Koran is quite long and I'm not going to quote
the whole thing here.  But the passage cited is verse 12.   For those
who believe or teach that this particular passage refers to an unwise
or unfair God who condemns all non-Moslems to a violent death, simply
keep reading.  When they reach verse 61, they will find - - "But if
the enemy incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace and
trust in God, for he is the one who hears and knows.
Not only does this verse not relate to any command for Moslems to
"kill infidels," it actually goes on to tell Moslems to 'stop' killing
even 'daughter sacrificing pagans' as long as the pagans are willing
to be peaceful.
We can continue this right on through any of the Koranic quotes used
by the anti-Moslem Christian clergy but I think you can now see why
doing so in this kind of format would entail the writting of an answer
that would be virtually a book.  I think, perhaps, you can also see
why I said you have asked an "enormous question," one which will take
days to research and answer.  Each of your 5 claims will need to be
addressed in a similar manner.  And guess what?  There is so much more
than can be done, that this response is still "shallow" and may well
still be considered "opinion."
You mentioned the people in the South and their ability to believe
this rubbish without checking things out any further.  Please don't
just single out the South.  This is a nationwide problem.  It is
reprehensible, but none the less it is believed by millions of
otherwise good people.
If anti-Christians used the Bible in a similar manner (and many do),
they could convince many of their own that Christianity teaches its
followers to kill witches and stone to death disobedient children. 
They could quote chapter and verse all the scripture that supports it.
Scriptural literalism can be a heavy moral burden to bear. 
In as much as this is a "comment" rather than a formal answer, and
because of the fact that I will be using many of the same resources
over and over as I go through each "claim," I will simply post all
citations at the same time at the end as a single "bibliography."
I hope this has helped you somewhat with claim number 1. 
Subject: Re: islam and current events: 1 of 5
From: justaskscott-ga on 30 Mar 2003 17:32 PST
I believe that, as per the original question, digsalot-ga is entitled
to answer question 1 of 5.

"Q: the religion of islam"
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